# Fat hate speech? The role of the bystander. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160 "2010-07-01T04:15:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/121 "2010-07-03T17:11:14Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Olives, I’m not saying your cites are wrong. I’m just saying that they aren’t on point. Where the subject is whether any individual fat person can lose weight, cites about the experiences of large numbers of fat people have no bearing on the question–the answer is only that of course that individual fat person can lose weight. > > When they say they can’t, and other people direct negative speech toward them, the other people are not fat bashing, they are whiner bashing. So, when you and Dseid and Duke and others shake your head at the fat bashing you see, you are wrong, because no fat bashing is taking place. Since you have absolutely no idea whatsoever who can and cannot lose weight, you have no right or standing of any kind to decide who is “whining” or not. And dammit I can’t get into this in a big way, but how about the discussion move back towards the point, which is not whether Jane Smith can lose weight or not. The point is that some people make it their habit to jump in to any and every conversation about fat people and announce some version of “Fuck the fatties they asked for it because they don’t do whatever it takes to be thin and therefore whatever anyone says about them is ok.” aka “fatties are weak lazy slobs” Dseid’s question is for the people who actually recognize how fucked up that is and why don’t they says something? Being fat is not a crime, no matter how it happens. It’s painful and difficult to deal with, no matter how it happens. Why does anyone arrive at the conclusion that because someone is fat they must be pounced on for it. one way or another? Because that’s not about the fat person, it’s about the people who take time and energy to do that, over and over again. Why? What’s the payoff? What’s the point? What are you so incredibly invested in that you feel the need to do this? It can’t be to help, since it doesn’t and that’s established fact. So… what’s your agenda, other than to make someone who already feels bad feel worse? Does it make you feel good about yourself? Is it really as simple and obvious and tired as it looks, in that people like to identify people they think are somehow “less” than they are so they can feel good about themselves? Because that’s just so incredibly cheesy. But no one ever takes responsibility for their choice to show up in threads about obesity to make their completely unhelpful and unwelcome and thoroughly predictable announcements. They never explain where they are coming from without pointing the finger back at the people they came to bitch about… but _ **your choice** _ to participate is _about you_, not about fat people. It’s not like someone knocked on your door to take a survey and you answered a question. This board has hundreds of active threads going at any time, and you folks who show up in these threads don’t have to, you choose to. That choice is about you, not fat people. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/122 "2010-07-03T17:26:54Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > no one ever takes responsibility for their choice Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/123 "2010-07-03T17:49:11Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Since you have absolutely no idea whatsoever who can and cannot lose weight, you have no right or standing of any kind to decide who is “whining” or not. Yes I do. Everyone can lose weight. It really is that simple. > [@](#): > > Why does anyone arrive at the conclusion that because someone is fat they must be pounced on for it. one way or another? Who has arrived at that conclusion? As I have said, and then repeated, and will now repeat again, I have seen very little evidence on this messageboard of people being pounced on for being fat. What you are taking as people being pounced on for being fat is really people being pounced on for being whiners who won’t take responsibility for their fatness. There is a huge difference, and you (and others) just absolutely refuse to see it. You see negative speech directed toward a fat person and you conclude that the person is being bashed because they are fat–that is almost invariably not the case in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/124 "2010-07-03T18:16:19Z")
**Rand** , since you accept the plethora of medical/scientific cites, let me see if I have your point right … It is not physically impossible for _anyone_ to lose weight. Yes, you acknowledge, there is a huge biologic predisposition, both genetic and as a result of prenatal and early postnatal factors, that contributes mightily to whether or not a particular individual child stays thin or becomes obese when each are placed in the same modern Western society, and yes, once an adult is obese there are very strong biologic factors at play that work to make it very difficult to move off of that obese “settling point” and that predispose that individual to regain fat once lost, so much so that extremely few of the morbidly obese actually sustain significant fat loss, even in the best of the medically supervised programs. You also accept the cites that show that shaming the fat is likely counterproductive to helping them achieve fat loss, and that much of the health benefit can be achieved with a modest amount of weight loss coupled with ongoing healthy lifestyle choices, even if no additional weight loss is accomplished. But still, becoming non-obese is not impossible for any of them … it’s just that very few achieve it. And since it not impossible then all of those considerations are just “going macro” and not “on point” - any obese individual who does not become non-obese and who “whines” about how they “tried and they couldn’t” or about how they lost but it came back on - deserves to have negative speech addressed to them as they are not taking responsibility for their fatness: “Everyone can lose weight. It really is that simple.” And you have never seen negative speech directed against the fat outside of that circumstance, certainly not on these boards, or at least very very rarely. Does that accurately capture your position? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/125 "2010-07-03T18:42:02Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Rand** , since you accept the plethora of medical/scientific cites, let me see if I have your point right … > > It is not physically impossible for _anyone_ to lose weight. Yes, you acknowledge, there is a huge biologic predisposition, both genetic and as a result of prenatal and early postnatal factors, that contributes mightily to whether or not a particular individual child stays thin or becomes obese when each are placed in the same modern Western society, and yes, once an adult is obese there are very strong biologic factors at play that work to make it very difficult to move off of that obese “settling point” and that predispose that individual to regain fat once lost, so much so that extremely few of the morbidly obese actually sustain significant fat loss, even in the best of the medically supervised programs. You also accept the cites that show that shaming the fat is likely counterproductive to helping them achieve fat loss, and that much of the health benefit can be achieved with a modest amount of weight loss coupled with ongoing healthy lifestyle choices, even if no additional weight loss is accomplished. But still, becoming non-obese is not impossible for any of them … it’s just that very few achieve it. And since it not impossible then all of those considerations are just “going macro” and not “on point” - any obese individual who does not become non-obese and who “whines” about **how they “tried and they couldn’t” or about how they lost but it came back on** - deserves to have negative speech addressed to them as they are not taking responsibility for their fatness: “Everyone can lose weight. It really is that simple.” And you have never seen negative speech directed against the fat outside of that circumstance, certainly not on these boards, or at least very very rarely. > > Does that accurately capture your position? Yes, essentially, with the following comments: 1. Replace the bolded part above with “how it is impossible for them to lose weight” 2. I’m not saying anyone deserves to have negative speech directed toward them. I’m just saying that when you guys read this negative speech, you are saying that it is directed toward fat people, when it is not directed toward fat people, it is directed toward whiners (who happen to be fat and happen to specifically be whining about the impossibility of losing weight). ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/126 "2010-07-03T18:44:56Z")
Maybe I am getting the wrong “message” in this thread. Is it that it’s OK for a person to get on someone else’s case, perhaps some total stranger even, for being fat? Is there some sort of right or duty to do that? Don’t think so. I’d have no issues with telling someone to shut up, if I ever witnessed such behavior. Is honesty the best policy? Or is it just an excuse to be an jerk? Sometimes keeping the mouth closed is the best policy. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/127 "2010-07-03T18:58:06Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > :dubious: > :eek: > :rolleyes: > > There comes a time when all hope…and all credibility…is lost. > > I believe when it comes to Sleeps’ contributions to this topic, that point has been reached, and passed. > (Stoid now re-lurks, since to do otherwise would be too time consuming and her sister would be disappointed. I was only reading, but this I could not let stand. Have a nice holiday everyone.) Hahaha! Thanks for the laugh. It totally wounds me that you, who is so textbook about so many things and could be someone’s psychological thesis, think that I have lost credibility. I can honestly not think of a single person on this board that I’d enjoy getting this message from more. And here AGAIN after saying you wouldn’t be for 7 days. Man, that impulse control is GOLDEN isn’t it. I await your next list of excuses on any number of life topics. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/128 "2010-07-03T19:18:23Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Well **Sleeps** , I appreciate the fact that you are at least _trying_ to support your claim this time. Generally it’s good form to link to a discussion to get a context though, in both cases. > > So the first was from a Pit thread which is very pertinent to the last part of your post - a poster was [Pitting](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=419185) the media for setting up the _very_ thin as the ideal:And following comments about a women saying that indeed that Monroe was too fat and that she personally get upset that she is too fat if her thighs touch. > > You really think participating in a Pit thread about whether or not the ideal sexy body is as thin as Nicole Kidman’s (compared to the too fat Marilyn Monroe), and responding to a woman who has stated that thighs shouldn’t be so fat as to touch each other, and that she is upset when she looks in a mirror and sees that hers do, with that comment about how the media holding up Kidman’s “prepubertal thighs” as being ideal has consequences is being derogatory??? > > **AuntBeast** was complaining about comments being made by in-laws that she had lost too much weight and that they were doing so rudely. I responded 40 posts in withTHAT you call making a derogatory comment about her being thin? > > You see **sleeps** , this is why we demand proof of what people claim - so we know when they are just making shit up. Again. Ah yes, more smarmy from Dseid who is always so rational on this topic. This is exactly why playing your cite game is an exercise in futility. Look at how you address someone who hasn’t ONE TIME made a remark about fatties and took **Gruntled** to task for using what you term “hate speech.” You honestly just let it fly in any direction and CANNOT dial it back for any reason. And here is your excuses for denigrating a woman for looking too thin. It was the Pit! Someone called Marilyn Monroe fat! People might look in the mirror and blah blah blah blah blah. The simple fact of the matter is that YOU used a hurtful term to slam the looks of someone. YOU, who thinks it’s HATE SPEEEEEECH! Y-o-u. You have every dumb reason you can think of for it, but you did it. Also, I used **Auntbeast** ’s post as an example of how very, very different your attitude is if it’s on the other side of the weight scale. You were acting as if it shouldn’t even bother her. Had she gained weight and got bad comments you’d have lead the charge with a mishmash of LOOK AT MY CITES, LOOK AT THEM! But still, I’m the one who is nuts for even responding to you because I can’t take anything you say seriously. Honestly. Even after rereading your major fuck up earlier about WEAK ASS FATTIES you still do your little haughty sniff and say that’s just not how YOU see it and IF you are mistaken then you apologize to **Palacheck.** Huh? That can only be two things. Either (a) you have NO reading comprehension skills at all. None. or (b) you see exactly how ridiculous you look and can’t admit that you were flying off the handle about something you were so wrong about and you’re trying (in vain) to save face of some kind with all of your qualifiers. It must be ME who is reading that post wrong! IF you are mistken, blah blah blah. So which is it? So please, come back with all of your shouts of your CITES! and your sarcasm (at least this time you’re TRYING to support your claim) and have fun. Most of your argument has been about WEAK ASS FATTIES and you were 100% completely and thoroughly WRONG about it. So please, carry on with your crusade without me and you can say it’s because I lack cites or refuse to see reason or any other list of things that you want to assign to me. I’m simply not going to continue to go back and forth with someone who wants to be jerkish to anyone and everyone who doesn’t agree 100% with him. And that would be you. You seem to be completely unable to discuss this particular topic without a heaping helping of your condescension. When I went back and looked for the Nicole Kidman comment I had to read several comments by you on this topic and got to see over and over again just how you operate on this subject. If even a fraction of the diatribes you write on the topic have the twisted thinking of your debacle with **Palacheck** then I can assure myself that skipping everything you write in the future will not hurt my experience here at all. And that’s sad to me, honest to goodness, because I feel that you and I agree on many major things in the struggle of getting people healthier. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/129 "2010-07-03T20:02:20Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Y > There is a huge difference, and you (and others) just absolutely refuse to see it. You see negative speech directed toward a fat person and you conclude that the person is being bashed because they are fat–that is almost invariably not the case in my experience. This is disingenuous at best. The roster, including yourself, picks the fat to bitch at - unless you can show me all the other threads wherein the same roster shows up to tell alcoholics they’re whining, and anorexics, and bulimics, and gamblers, and junkies, and sex addicts, and while we’re at it let’s talk about the paraplegics who broke their necks skateboarding or skiing? What YOU refuse to acknowledge is the question about your investment. Why do you feel the need? Why do you read the thread? Why do you invest the energy? What’s YOUR payoff? Because it does not matter whether fat people are full of shit or not; I’m sure lots of people think so who never even bother to open the threads to find out for themselves. But you and Dio and others do. Every. Single. Time. Without fail. That’s about you, not fat people or whiners, you. We all decide what threads we are going to participate in. I know my interest in threads about fat, I’m fat. What’s your interest? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/130 "2010-07-03T20:05:25Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Man, that impulse control is GOLDEN isn’t it. I await your next list of excuses on any number of life topics. It’s a bitch, no doubt about it. Especially when I’m being so sorely tested by the willful ignorance of people such as yourself who absolutely refuse acknowledge scientifically established facts and yet demand to be taken seriously. It’s very reminiscent of creationists arguing with evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/131 "2010-07-03T20:13:26Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > This is disingenuous at best. > > The roster, including yourself, picks the fat to bitch at - unless you can show me all the other threads wherein the same roster shows up to tell alcoholics they’re whining, and anorexics, and bulimics, and gamblers, and junkies, and sex addicts, and while we’re at it let’s talk about the paraplegics who broke their necks skateboarding or skiing? > > What YOU refuse to acknowledge is the question about your investment. > > Why do you feel the need? > Why do you read the thread? > Why do you invest the energy? > What’s YOUR payoff? > Because it does not matter whether fat people are full of shit or not; I’m sure lots of people think so who never even bother to open the threads to find out for themselves. But you and Dio and others do. Every. Single. Time. Without fail. That’s about you, not fat people or whiners, you. > > We all decide what threads we are going to participate in. I know my interest in threads about fat, I’m fat. > > What’s your interest? I like bashing delusional whiners. I don’t like bashing fat people for being fat–never have and never will. What’s your interest in not understanding the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/132 "2010-07-03T20:14:39Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Especially when I’m being so sorely tested by the willful ignorance of people such as yourself who absolutely refuse acknowledge scientifically established facts and yet demand to be taken seriously. What are the scientifically established facts that SWB and people such as her (presumably me) are refusing to acknowledge? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/133 "2010-07-03T20:46:28Z")
**Rand** Well I replace the bolded part and it now says that if someone says “it is impossible for them to lose weight” (just saying “they tried and couldn’t” is struck out by you as insufficient grounds) then negative speech against them is deserved … but then you immediately say you are “not saying anyone deserves to have negative speech directed toward them” … followed by a post about how much you enjoy bashing people you think are delusional whiners … I am confused. Honestly. I am understanding that it is your belief that many posters have claimed that it is “impossible for them to lose weight” (not difficult, not and that they tried and failed and it is very very hard, that it is literally impossible for them to lose weight) and that those comments claiming that it is impossible have provoked the vast majority of negative comments such as calling them fatties, or lazy, or weak. That these comments are generally not directed against the class of obese people in general as a group, only very specific people who have made that specific claim. That is correct? If so, I really must again pull the “cite please” card. Can you please show me several examples of this? I may have missed them but I am not remembering many occurring. Once or twice, maybe. Mostly the rants I’ve read are people claiming that they “know” fat people who do this all the time, or that they “know” most fat people do, not in response to behavior that has occurred in front of us. (I trust that you have a better understanding of how supporting a claim works than do some here. :)) On preview: **Rand** you are now on record accepting as valid the articles I have linked to from _Science_ and WebMD and others and that I summarized the gist of a few posts up ; SWB stated that she has read articles that say that those studies are all wrong and when asked to provide a link to even one of them huffed that she was not going to “play my game”. I think that is the reference. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/134 "2010-07-03T20:50:48Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > **Sleeps** , my interest in this subject has nothing to do with fear. It has to do with the reason I get involved in any thread in the first place – I want the truth. I like empiricism. I like gathering data. I like wrestling with new data that contradicts my worldview. Unfortunately, not a single person in this thread has offered a scrap of data for me to consider into my aggregate pile of data on ‘‘obesity.’’ This makes me sad. ☹ This board is so rabidly anti-science sometimes it kills me. > > As for the notion that unsustainable weight-loss is negative and pessimistic, I would say no, it’s not. At all. Nowhere in my citations does any person treating the obese suggest that obese people may as well give up. Instead, they state quite clearly that obese people can improve their health tremendously by establishing healthy habits. In other words, the evidence has found, ‘‘fat people can be healthy, if they learn to engage in the right behaviors.’’ In fact, my friend, some studies have indicated that slightly overweight people who engage in healthy behaviors such as nutritious diets and routine exercise [are likely to live longer](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.c7aaeb7940626693fa418a1eab2291f6.81) than their thin counterparts. > > So what’s the problem, then? Why is that not acceptably positive to you? Could it possibly have to do with our culture’s ingrained belief that fat = ugly and thin = beautiful? Yes, it’s tragic, indeed. Fat people can never be society’s definition of beautiful. But neither can I and neither can a lot of people. I suppose, like the rest of us, they will just have to carry on somehow. Wow, lots of questions for me, but I’m still concerned about the 180 pound woman example. There were some assumptions there and talk of neurological pathways that didn’t quite make the example, in my humble opinion, a good one. Again, neurological pathways can be changed. If they couldn’t then I’d say there are a lot of mental health professionals who owe their patients hefty refunds. What on earth are you on about with fat=ugly and thin=beautiful? I haven’t mentioned ANYTHING about looks at all. It’s pretty frustrating to be expected to defend myself against theories I haven’t expounded on. I really just don’t care about perceived beauty since it’s so very subjective. Why are you asking me about that when I’m talking about helping people get healthier. And please don’t go all Dseid on me with the “my friend” rudeness. I thought you and I were having a civil discussion about the topic and have always thought you as very rational. I’m not discussing this to play games or GOTCHA or “I win!” with you. This is a discussion, at least for me. What it is for you, I do not know but I’m not going down that road with you. If that’s your intention let me know now and we can stop altogether. Of course I’ve read studies about weight loss. Any type of lifestyle habit will fail if you stop the new and positive changes. That’s true whether you’re talking about weight loss or gain, gambling, shopping addiction, drug or alcohol use, etc etc. That’s not unique to weight loss. Once again, my focus is to work with patients on positive changes they can make for a lifetime. I never stop stressing therapy to them. I never stop trying to find a way around their physical and emotional challenges. Whether a challenge is real or perceived it affects their progress. Working through them is rewarding beyond words. To see the relief on their faces with they realize that they CAN do it (one day at a time for many, just like in AA) is addictive to ME. People can trot out their studies all day long if they want to. That’s great. Anyone who wants to can focus on it and hold it up as “SEE, IT RARELY CAN BE DONE!” if they want to, it doesn’t affect me. I had an eating disorder as a teenager. PTSD? Been there, done that. Like I said, we ALL have our struggles. I’d rather focus on what CAN be done. Everyone’s MMV. You all have a lovely weekend. (also Stoid: thanks for more laughs!) ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/135 "2010-07-03T21:12:20Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I am understanding that it is your belief that many posters have claimed that it is “impossible for them to lose weight” (not difficult, not and that they tried and failed and it is very very hard, that it is literally impossible for them to lose weight) and that those comments claiming that it is impossible have provoked the vast majority of negative comments such as calling them fatties, or lazy, or weak. That these comments are generally not directed against the class of obese people in general as a group, only very specific people who have made that specific claim. That is correct? That’s correct, more or less. Also, in addition to posters claiming that it is impossible for them to lose weight, the negative speech has come up in the context of the impossibility for fat people to lose weight and was directed only at fat people that expressed that impossibility (not all fat people). > [@](#): > > If so, I really must again pull the “cite please” card. Can you please show me several examples of this? I may have missed them but I am not remembering many occurring. Once or twice, maybe. Mostly the rants I’ve read are people claiming that they “know” fat people who do this all the time, or that they “know” most fat people do, not in response to behavior that has occurred in front of us. Sure. That GQ thread linked in the OP of this thread is an example of a post in the context of the impossibility for some fat people to lose weight–it was the entire subject of that thread. Also, I’ve seen posters on this board claim that it is impossible for them to lose weight (the only one that currently comes to mind is Maastricht). > [@](#): > > On preview: **Rand** you are now on record accepting as valid the articles I have linked to from _Science_ and WebMD and others and that I summarized the gist of a few posts up ; SWB stated that she has read articles that say that those studies are all wrong and when asked to provide a link to even one of them huffed that she was not going to “play my game”. I think that is the reference. I have no reason to doubt the studies you posted, and I am not ignoring the science. It’s just that the science does not say that it is impossible for any particular fat person to lose weight, which is exactly what some fat people say, and exactly what they get bashed on the SDMB for. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/136 "2010-07-03T22:23:04Z")
**Rand** you’ve claimed that thread as an example before and it has before been pointed out to you that you are mistaken. That thread was about an ad for a bariatric surgery center that the op heard that he reported in two ways, once “can never lose weight by dieting” and once as “no amount of dieting is ever going to help them”. In neither case was this an individual claiming it was impossible for them to lose weight. (And it was very likely in reality not even the bariatric surgery center claiming that it is impossible for that third to lose weight, just that that method fails as a long term solution at least that often, hoping that some who have tried their best and failed will give them a call.) There was no specific poster claiming that it is impossible for him/her to lose weight in that op, and not even a specific person being referenced in the op that was claiming that it was impossible for him/her to lose weight. Maybe you could bash the treatment center for poor ad copy, but to do that you’d first need to know what the ad copy actually said, the first recollection or the second, and in any case, it has nothing to do with an individual whining that it is impossible for them to lose weight. Try again. C’mon, you see this all the time here, it should be easy for you to find several in a few minutes. I barely had to go off the first search page to meet your request for unprovoked negative speech towards the fat as a group (“fatties”, “lazy”, etc); surely you can find many more of your examples even faster. And again, please help me out of my confusion on your position that I asked about in the first part of the post you were responding to. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/137 "2010-07-03T22:25:08Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Wow, lots of questions for me, but I’m still concerned about the 180 pound woman example. There were some assumptions there and talk of neurological pathways that didn’t quite make the example, in my humble opinion, a good one. Again, neurological pathways can be changed. The original pathways can’t be changed. New neurological pathways can be established, but the old ones will always be there, forever. People who have already established bad habits will forever have strongly ingrained neurological pathways for those habits. Their challenge is in creating new pathways and new habits. It’s not impossible, but it certainly puts them at a disadvantage to people who never had the bad habits in the first place. This is why I included that bit–because it’s an additional obstacle. > [@](#): > > What on earth are you on about with fat=ugly and thin=beautiful? I haven’t mentioned ANYTHING about looks at all. It’s pretty frustrating to be expected to defend myself against theories I haven’t expounded on. I really just don’t care about perceived beauty since it’s so very subjective. I’m not accusing you of anything or trying to attack you. I will explain below. > [@](#): > > Why are you asking me about that when I’m talking about helping people get healthier. But that’s where we differ. You seem to think that getting healthier and getting thin are one and the same thing. The evidence I have presented indicates that it’s possible for fat people to become healthy in every way that matters, without ever losing weight. In that context, ‘‘it’s pretty much impossible for obese people to lose weight’’ isn’t a negative/discouraging platform, unless you think there is more value to weight-loss than just being healthy. This is where the beauty standards issue comes in. I think it’s VERY easy to conflate society’s general derision of fat people with the real health problems obesity often indicates. That’s not a slight on your character, I just happen to think it unconsciously informs every conversation about obesity whether intentional or not. That’s why I asked you – IF it’s true that fat people can absolutely be healthy _regardless of their weight_, then why is the fact of them losing weight or not so important? People say they want to lose weight ‘‘for their health’’ all the time, but you and I know they are often motivated by a desire for social and self-acceptance more than anything else. If people can truly be fat and healthy, then what’s wrong with saying, ‘‘You might lose some weight, but most people find it’s very hard to lose a lot of weight and keep it off. Let’s work on improving your health and learning how you can accept yourself at any size.’’ You perceive that perspective as overly negative and unhelpful. I perceive it as establishing realistic expectations and dealing with the two most fundamental problems linked with obesity-- self-hate and bad health. > [@](#): > > And please don’t go all Dseid on me with the “my friend” rudeness. I thought you and I were having a civil discussion about the topic and have always thought you as very rational. I’m not discussing this to play games or GOTCHA or “I win!” with you. This is a discussion, at least for me. What it is for you, I do not know but I’m not going down that road with you. If that’s your intention let me know now and we can stop altogether. I meant ‘‘my friend’’ in a genuine, friendly way, not a snarky or condescending one. > [@](#): > > Of course I’ve read studies about weight loss. Any type of lifestyle habit will fail if you stop the new and positive changes. That’s true whether you’re talking about weight loss or gain, gambling, shopping addiction, drug or alcohol use, etc etc. That’s not unique to weight loss. Exactly – they will fail because the old neurological pathways are still there, just waiting to be triggered. That’s why someone can go along just swimmingly with weight loss for 6 months and then BAM! suddenly be back in their old patterns. It requires a constant conscious moving back to the healthier patterns. The good news is, the longer the healthier patterns are in place, the easier it gets. I _love_ therapy, particularly behavioral therapy. I’m just saying it hasn’t been proven effective for sustained weight loss. Behavioral researchers are vividly aware of this and hard at work trying to figure out what’s missing. Maybe someday they will. > [@](#): > > Once again, my focus is to work with patients on positive changes they can make for a lifetime. I never stop stressing therapy to them. I never stop trying to find a way around their physical and emotional challenges. Whether a challenge is real or perceived it affects their progress. Working through them is rewarding beyond words. To see the relief on their faces with they realize that they CAN do it (one day at a time for many, just like in AA) is addictive to ME. This whole discussion aside, it sounds like you have an awesome, highly rewarding job. > [@](#): > > People can trot out their studies all day long if they want to. That’s great. Anyone who wants to can focus on it and hold it up as “SEE, IT RARELY CAN BE DONE!” if they want to, it doesn’t affect me. I had an eating disorder as a teenager. PTSD? Been there, done that. Like I said, we ALL have our struggles. I’d rather focus on what CAN be done. Everyone’s MMV. My concern is that when we emphasize weight loss over health we may set people up for unrealistic expectations, their measure of ‘‘success’’ may be too high or unattainable. Then, when they fail to meet that unrealistic measure of success, they and everyone else in society will point and laugh and say that they are weak. Rather than celebrating their actual tangible improvements, they will instead lament over what they didn’t achieve, conclude that there’s no point in even trying, and abandon all the good stuff. I’m sorry if I said or did something to set you on the defensive. That certainly wasn’t my intention. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/138 "2010-07-03T23:10:52Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > … I _love_ therapy, particularly behavioral therapy. I’m just saying it hasn’t been proven effective for sustained weight loss. Behavioral researchers are vividly aware of this and hard at work trying to figure out what’s missing. Maybe someday they will… It _is_ effective as a treatment modality for childhood obesity just not when the children are the sole direct target of the modality. Yeah, I’m going to go all DSeid on you and trot out [a study](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VB8-4M6SG8K-1&_user=10&_coverDate=03/31/2007&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1389770545&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5dbec18925a86b7556fd17ac267a9a2c). > [@](#): > > A comprehensive literature review identified 16 studies with a total of 44 treatment groups. Results indicated that interventions containing a family-behavioral component produced larger effect sizes than the alternative treatment groups Or [two](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7805631?dopt=Abstract). This information isn’t even very new. > [@](#): > > We report 10-year treatment outcomes for obese children in 4 randomized treatment studies. At 10 years, 34% decreased percentage overweight by 20% or more, and 30% were not obese. Significant effects were observed when parents and children were targeted and reinforced for weight loss in comparison with nontargeted controls and for children given lifestyle or aerobic exercise in comparison with a calisthenics control. Thirty-four percent of the variance in change in percentage overweight was predicted from sex, baseline percentage overweight, self-monitoring weight, meals eaten at home, and family and friends’ support for eating and exercise. Results show long-term changes in children depend on the treatment, and evidence converges on the importance of the family and other sources of support for eating and activity change. Or [three](http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2431/7/33). > [@](#): > > a family-based Therapeutic Education program without dietetic prescription involving overweight and obese children/adolescents, without evident psychological troubles, and their families. … After a follow-up of 2.7 ± 1.1 years, 72.9% of the children who followed the Therapeutic Education Program obtained a BMI% reduction, compared to 42.8% of children who followed the traditional dietary treatment. Weight reduction was good in moderately obese children and in the severely obese. In addition, a smaller proportion of children treated with therapeutic education had negative results (BMI increase of \>10%) compared to those treated with dietary approach (11.8% vs. 25.7%) … We named our program “The Balloon Game [19]” recalling the action of reshaping a toy balloon in a longer rather than larger way. We made it with the aim of exchanging the feelings of shame and guilt usually linked to obesity, for those of fun and blamelessness of an amusing game. In agreement with the reported evidence [28-31], our TEP includes three steps … Initial assessment and education session … Therapeutic education session for parents/caregivers in small groups … teaches them some basic self-monitoring skills and how to correctly self-assess daily food and caloric intake, according to different situations and individual needs. Additionally, basic positive reinforcement techniques (that do not include food or money) are proposed and families are taught how to adjust their lifestyle and environment (e.g., how to reduce access to high-fat and low-nutrient dense foods, how to shop and cook healthier foods, how to increase access to physical activity while avoiding behaviors that prompt inactivity, such as TV watching, playing computer games, etc.) … Second assessment session (single family group) The child doesn’t even need to be directly involved in the program at all. [The parents do.](http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v12/n2/abs/oby200445a.html) > [@](#): > > Mean reduction in percent overweight was greater at all follow-up points in children of the parent-only group compared with those in the children-only group (p \< 0.05). Seven years after the program terminated, mean reduction in children’s overweight was 29% in the parent-only group vs. 20.2% in the children-only group (p \< 0.05) As in many things it is easier to create healthy habits by starting young and getting the pathways established and while you have their local environment able to be controlled to a greater degree, than once a person is an adult, and the pathways have solidified some and there is no reasonable expectation of the same degree of support, emotional and otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/139 "2010-07-03T23:45:57Z")
Oh, otherwise I think that you are mostly spot on. The goal for improving the health of obese adults is, IMHO, not to focus on the scale as the objective and the measure of success, but on the lifestyle choices themselves, and learning that these are changes to make for life for their own sake, no matter what the scale says. Yes, the behaviors are the same as in a weight loss centered program - learning what a proper portion is, how to slow down the eating process so the body has a chance to get the brain the message that it has had enough, getting in habits that give incidental exercise, cutting down sedentary behaviors, choosing foods that are low fat and low simple carbs, high nutrition density per calorie. If they succeed in making those changes and sticking with them they may lose weight, probably will, and their health will be better yet for the weight loss too, but whether or not they do they will still be healthier. And if the goal is achieving those behaviors for another day then every day that they do that is a positively reinforcing success instead of when the scale is the goal and they have to endure the long plateau periods where they fail to lose even when they keep with the plan and feel as if they are failing, maybe to the point of discouragement and quitting, because the scale is, for those weeks, stuck on the same number. Or yeah, what you said **olivesmarch**! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/140 "2010-07-04T00:56:47Z")
**Rand** so I’ve started hunting for **Maastrich** ’s posts and claims it is “impossible”. [So far this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12497108&postcount=31): > [@](#): > > … obviously I don’t do enough, or I wouldn’t be overweight and I would lose weight at a faster pace. Yet, everything I do is also, in a way, all I can do. I have tried to monitor my eating, I have tried to count calories, but I don’t have that kind of discipline… Sounds like a “I have tried and failed” statement to me. Others seem the same “I can’t diet …” etc. My cursory search hasn’t found any claims of impossibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160.md?page=8)