# Fat hate speech? The role of the bystander. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160 "2010-07-01T04:15:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/141 "2010-07-04T01:37:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I like bashing Thank you for answering honestly. There’s two kinds of people: those who enjoy bashing others, and those who do not. (the reasons are completely irrelevant). You are someone who enjoys bashing others. I don’t think I’m entirely alone in the opinion that between fat people “whining” that they can’t lose weight, and people who take their pleasure in bashing others, the fat people are the far less repugnant. (Especially since the fat people don’t need to be encountered at all, whereas The Bashers make it a point to find threads to do their bashing in, and if the thread hasn’t gone there already, they will make it go there by asserting their opinions on the subject.) But of course, to each his own. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/142 "2010-07-04T01:55:40Z")
Stoid, you are bashing me. Why? Do you like bashing? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/143 "2010-07-04T02:16:33Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > > [@Rand Rover](#): > > > > I like bashing > > Thank you for answering honestly. That was a very disingenuous snipping of his quote, **Stoid**. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/144 "2010-07-04T05:24:11Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > That was a very disingenuous snipping of his quote, **Stoid**. Not at all. Who and why doesn’t matter - the truth is that he likes to bash. I don’t like to bash anyone for anything. Most of the people I know and associate with don’t like to bash anyone for anything, they particularly don’t make it a point to seek out people they feel are deserving of bashing to bash them. Leaving the details out doesn’t change the fundamental fact at all, nothing disingenuous about it. (And I’m guessing that his bashing isn’t confined to fat people “whining” - My own observation tells me that Rand is fond of bashing, period.) The details of who and why are completely irrelevant, as I said in the first place, when I left them out. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/145 "2010-07-04T05:26:34Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Stoid, you are bashing me. Why? Do you like bashing? I’m not bashing you. I didn’t seek you out to tell you what I think is wrong with you and why. You showed up here, and many other threads addressing obesity from many angles and made it a point to do some bashing. I asked you why, you told me, and I shared my point of view about your choice to bash the “fat whiners” vs. the “fat whiners” themselves - you seem to be making so much of the “whining”, it seemed you believe this makes your bashing a justified and lesser offense. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/146 "2010-07-04T12:52:31Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I’m not bashing you. I didn’t seek you out to tell you what I think is wrong with you and why. Um, yes you do. You are a basher of people you perceive as fat bashers. So, you like bashing. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/147 "2010-07-04T13:54:07Z")
**Rand** ’s made so much of the “whining” and has claimed that negative speech is only targeted against individuals who have stated that it is “impossible” for them to lose weight, not those who have said that they’ve merely tried and failed, and even struck out targeting those who have said they “tried and couldn’t” … yet he has yet to show me a single instance of anyone on this board who has ever done that. Not one. Yet he says it happens all the time. I’ve spent some time looking trying to claim check myself now. (Hey, if I can’t go all DSeid on us, who can? :)) I’ve found plenty of Pit threads bashing fat people in general and random fat people that posters have seen in their lives. And okay, they _are_ Pit threads, and those doing the bashing did get their lumps in return. And I found people who the posters _say_ claim it is impossible for them to lose weight. But no one who does. I looked up **Maastricht** ’s posts as he is someone who **Rand** says that it is impossible for him to lose weight - and find that he does no such thing, he clearly says that he doesn’t have enough will power and discipline to do it but is disgusted by his BMI of 36 and by his self-image. I search the boards and find threads like [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=199345) and [this troll thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=174650) and [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=166713). I found [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=157910) which at first blush meets the “I can’t lose weight!” standard, but reading on she is indeed trying desperately and is actually aiming for thinner than her doctor advised, believing she needs to for medical reasons. And [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=125868) comes close - she says she’s desperately trying but still gains - yet she doesn’t say it is impossible, just that she is failing. And was immediately told that she has no self-control. Honestly, I cannot find a single example of any poster here saying it is impossible for them to lose weight. That they have tried and failed, that they have dieted and not lost, yes … and then given up on the diet (and with it the other health benefits the “diet” and exercise and positive lifestyle changes would’ve brought even without much weight loss) because they had remained fat anyway, yes. Maybe my search-fu is inadequate and there is a post or two buried somewhere. Probably there is. But **Rand** ’s claim that posters here frequently claim it is impossible for them to lose weight and that is where all the negative speech against the fat comes from is just not true. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/148 "2010-07-04T15:45:47Z")
One thing about fact checking though, sometimes it forces you to reassess your own impressions as well. Going through those threads _most_ of the negative speech directed against the fat is in the Pit (where negative speech is defined as acceptable) and has been met with more significant push back than I was thinking it was. Some of the other “fattie” comments have been made by the fat themselves akin to gays adopting the term “fag” for their own use for example. And while there are plenty of jerks who will jump in with “fattie” comments along the way, there also has actually usually been no shortage of those willing to slap those people down when they do most of the time. Yes there is, outside of The Pit, still a lot of the unsolicited “helpful advice” that if you are fat you must not be trying because if you were trying you’d not be fat any more, you must be lying, or you must be weak … but as I said at the start, those comments are in my mind closer to mere ignorance and some stereotyping than they are to hateful. That part of my premise is I think, in retrospect, overstated. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/149 "2010-07-04T17:38:23Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > (snip) One has been 180 pounds all of her life, (snip) so then…definitely an epidural…right? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/150 "2010-07-04T21:07:16Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Um, yes you do. You are a basher of people you perceive as fat bashers. So, you like bashing. I asked you the question, you declared your truth. Here’s mine: I like to see people who find pleasure in being hurtful to others they perceive as deserving of such hurtful behavior recognize that they are finding pleasure in ways that are not flattering or uplifting to themselves. Your reaction tells me it’s likely you have had such a moment of recognition. How you deal with it in this particular moment concerns me less than how you deal with it over the long haul. One can only hope that you will put your focus on your desire to be your own best self, rather than seeking entertainment by focusing on what you perceive to be other people’s failures and inadequacies. If you do, you’ll probably realize before long that you aren’t bothered at all by other people’s failures and inadequacies, at the very least, not the failures that have entirely to do with themselves and their own struggles. Who knows, you might even find yourself empathizing. That’s what I like. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/151 "2010-07-05T13:34:04Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > so then…definitely an epidural…right? _snort_ Adult life, I meant to say. **Dseid** , thanks for the interesting cites on behavioral therapy and children. It makes me wonder if we can’t get at adults using the same principle, by somehow involving them in a collective effort rather than singling any one person out. Makes me wonder if that’s why SparkPeople works so well. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/152 "2010-07-05T17:47:22Z")
Well the childhood groups have several things going for them, which an adult group might do well to try to replicate: The focus is on the behaviors not on the scale (your very cogent point). The less the positive reinforcer is the scale saying you’ve lost another pound, and the more it is the “attaboy” that you chose healthy foods in moderate amounts, that you ate your five servings of fruits and veggies, that you ate some high fiber foods and got enough high quality lower fat protein in, that you were physically active, that you restricted your sedentary entertainment, etc., the better. Those programs never teach kids that they should live hungry; they teach them how to recognize that they’ve had enough and to listen to those cues. Focus on the scale is bound to end up resulting in prolonged periods of negative reinforcement as weight loss slows or even stops for plateaus that can last for many weeks or longer, even as the behaviors are still on target, and resulting in better health. Constant and long term positive non-blaming support for the overweight or obese individual. What the kids have that adults do not of course is parents in charge of them. And an adult support group cannot quite replace that. Parents as agents of change are generally more highly motivated when doing things for the sake of their children than any adult is for their own well being. I’ve gotten more adults to quit smoking, for example, than any internist I’d wager as I have guilt about their kids’ health to throw at them. Nothing like knowing that you are making your kid wheeze or get ear infections to minimally stop smoking in the house and the car … and from there it is often just a small step to quit altogether. Quitting for their own sake they often won’t do though. And parents are the ones stocking the pantry and setting the rules for TV and Wii and for getting out on the bike and for eating a home cooked meal rather than doing the drive through or ordering in and providing models for behaviors. Once parents know how to control the environment, how to be [authoritative](http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100701/Authoritative-parenting-style-associated-with-frequency-of-family-meals-and-healthy-diet-in-adolescents.aspx) without being authoritarian, the rest can often follow: > [@](#): > > Investigators from the University of Minnesota have found a direct association between parenting style and the frequency of meals eaten together as a family and that an authoritative parenting style was associated with more frequent family meals. Their data further indicated that family meals have a positive influence on adolescents to eat a healthy diet. … Parents who were empathic and respectful, but who maintained clear boundaries and expectations, were classified as authoritative. Authoritarian parents maintained strict discipline and showed little warmth. … Who serves that role for adults? SparkPeople and its ilk can provide the information and the empathy but not the boundries, and the rest of society is full of those who believe that it is their place to be the authoritarian actor and try shame the obese into thinness - which works oh so well. And these people clearly see the obese doing things that they are not doing - **Rand** I am sure honestly believed that the obese on these boards claim “impossibility” all the time, and honestly read that linked thread as someone doing that - but his perception was a distortion of reality. I _suspect_ he realizes that now. Some here may endorse the illogic that I summarized earlier: > [@](#): > > It is not physically impossible for anyone to lose weight. Yes, you acknowledge, there is a huge biologic predisposition, both genetic and as a result of prenatal and early postnatal factors, that contributes mightily to whether or not a particular individual child stays thin or becomes obese when each are placed in the same modern Western society, and yes, once an adult is obese there are very strong biologic factors at play that work to make it very difficult to move off of that obese “settling point” and that predispose that individual to regain fat once lost, so much so that extremely few of the morbidly obese actually sustain significant fat loss, even in the best of the medically supervised programs. You also accept the cites that show that shaming the fat is likely counterproductive to helping them achieve fat loss, and that much of the health benefit can be achieved with a modest amount of weight loss coupled with ongoing healthy lifestyle choices, even if no additional weight loss is accomplished. But still, becoming non-obese is not impossible for any of them … it’s just that very few achieve it. And since it not impossible then all of those considerations are just “going macro” and not “on point” - any obese individual who does not become non-obese and who “whines” about how they “tried and they couldn’t” or about how they lost but it came back on - deserves to have negative speech addressed to them as they are not taking responsibility for their fatness: “Everyone can lose weight. It really is that simple.” Essentially that if something is not impossible then there is no “excuse” for failing to achieve it no matter how difficult it is, and that those who fail to achieve the very difficult but not impossible deserve to be called out for their “weakness”. Some probably really do believe that their shaming people is helping them in some way, as they are just “calling a spade a spade.” And I have little hope that any of those who do those things will have the self-awareness to re-examine those beliefs, to fact-check themselves, and have the integrity to admit, to themselves if no one else, that their assumptions about the obese and what is appropriate to say to and about them may have been “overstated.” I do believe that the rest of us, the bystanders, have an ethical obligation to tell those people that they are being out of line. And I again admit my mistake in not realizing that more here do that than I had thought. ---
**Author:** ![Gruntled](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/34f0e0/32.png) [@Gruntled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gruntled)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/153 "2010-07-05T23:12:17Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Being fat is not a crime, Nope. But those of us who don’t stuff our faces with Little Debbies are sick of paying the medical bills for those who do. Go ahead and be fat. I don’t give a damn. But don’t ask me to subsidize it. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/154 "2010-07-05T23:33:43Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > . **I’ve** gotten more **adults** to \*\*quit \*\*smoking, for example, than any internist I’d wager as I have **guilt** about their kids’ health to **throw** at them. Nothing like **knowing** that **you** are **making** your kid wheeze or get ear infections to minimally **stop** smoking in the house and the car … and from there it is **often** just a \*\*small step \*\*to **quit** altogether. . Oh the irony… It burns. Or smolders. Or sizzles like bacon or sumptin. So, YOU can be the great annointed GUILT dispenser to get tobbaco ADDICTED people to quit smoking because YOU know it just works! Yet somebody ELSE telling fat people they wouldnt be fat (statistically speaking) if they just DIDNT eat too much is being a fracking meanie. :dubious: So, if I run around telling fat people to knock it the fuck off because won’t they think of the children would that be okay with you? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/155 "2010-07-05T23:39:15Z")
> [@Gruntled](#): > > Nope. But those of us who don’t stuff our faces with Little Debbies are sick of paying the medical bills for those who do. > > Go ahead and be fat. I don’t give a damn. But don’t ask me to subsidize it. Go ahead and get old. Just don’t expect me to subsidize it when you get all the “old people ailments”. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/156 "2010-07-05T23:50:45Z")
You know what? Every time one of these threads comes up, it’s the same old thing. It doesn’t matter if it’s weight, smoking, food choice, serving size, what car to drive, or any other thing. Some people think they have a right to dictate, and apparently want to have some sort of law, social pressure, something in their back pocket to tell someone else what to do and how to live. There is some innate need to control people and make them conform to what “you all” want. This all seems to also give the same people the right to be rude, obnoxious, pushy. And yet, each and every one of “you” would yowl like a scalded cat if anyone dared to tell “YOU” what to do. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/157 "2010-07-06T00:38:53Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So, YOU can … In this context my advice and comments are not unsolicited. As their children’s doctor they are _asking me_ how to prevent the wheeze or the ear infection in the future. A slightly different circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/158 "2010-07-06T01:18:13Z")
Im going to take a wild guess and say Dseid probably presents the information slightly differently to how some of you do as well. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Gruntled](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/34f0e0/32.png) [@Gruntled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gruntled)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/159 "2010-07-06T03:03:17Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Go ahead and get old. Just don’t expect me to subsidize it when you get all the “old people ailments”. Moron. Old age-related illnesses are not the fault of the elderly sufferer. Obesity is CHOICE. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/160 "2010-07-06T04:18:24Z")
> [@Gruntled](#): > > Moron. > > Old age-related illnesses are not the fault of the elderly sufferer. > > Obesity is CHOICE. Personal insults aren’t allowed in this forum. Don’t do this again. While I’m at it I suggest that all posters stick to arguing the issue rather than making insulting or sarcastic comments about each other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160.md?page=9)