# Fatal crowd surge at Houston concert \[Incident From NOV2021\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 6, 2021, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887 "2021-11-06T12:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/21 "2021-11-07T15:38:32Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > There was an excellent long article about the research on this a few years ago Found it: > **[Crush Point](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/07/crush-point)** > > When large crowds assemble, is there a way to keep them safe? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/22 "2021-11-07T16:46:59Z")
According to the Washington Post there was a massive amount of security: > Mayor Turner said about 530 Houston police officers and 755 private security officers hired by Live Nation were at the event. > **[Previous security problems at Travis Scott festival raised red flags for...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/11/07/astroworld-concert-surge-travis-scott/)** > > A criminal investigation is underway as law enforcement officials seek to understand what happened at the fatal event. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/23 "2021-11-07T18:51:57Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > According to the Washington Post there was a massive amount of security: > > > Mayor Turner said about 530 Houston police officers and 755 private security officers hired by Live Nation were at the event. > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/11/07/astroworld-concert-surge-travis-scott/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/11/07/astroworld-concert-surge-travis-scott/) I’m not sure if I would call that a massive amount of security. There were over 50,000 concert goers. How many of the security guards were stationed at the entrances? How many cops were being used outside traffic control and parking lot patrol? ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/24 "2021-11-07T19:33:07Z")
I’m wondering if there could be a crowd surge protocol, which could be delivered by public service announcement, that could prevent, or at least lessen fatalities in crowd surge situations. Announcement example: _If you are being crushed, or witness people in front of you being crushed, turn around and scream “People Crush! Back Up!”. When you hear people in front of you screaming “People Crush! Back Up!”, continue the scream, like a wave going backward, until people in the back hear it, and stop moving forward._ I assume people in the back don’t want the people in front to be crushed to death, and they will stop moving forward if they learn that it’s happening. This is simply a loud, standardized method to get the message from the front to the back as quickly a possible. If even ~10% of a crowd knows the protocol and uses it, I believe it would save lives. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/25 "2021-11-07T19:46:47Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That worked because 1) someone could look over the entire crowd and 2) was paying attention and 3) the crowd cooperated. > > Usually, in these situations, the people in the back have no way to know what’s happening in the front. The back keeps moving forward at a gentle pace, no one has to be actually shoving, but the cumulative force of the entire crowd becomes deadly at the front. I can attest to this. I’m 5’2. Years ago, I went with my then-boyfriend to a duplex cinema. The other movie was enormously popular and had a long line, but once we got in the foyer, the lines had dissolved, and the foyer was crammed with people. Someone started shoving, I guess, because suddenly I was propelled by the crowd off to the side. I had zero control. It was like a rip tide. I ended up mashed against a metal ledge that cut into my diaphragm, and I couldn’t breathe. The guy immediately behind me recognized my dilemma and kept saying, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I can’t help it.” I don’t know what happened, but suddenly the pressure eased a bit, and the next thing I knew, my 6’3 date had waded over. I can easily imagine suffocating or getting trampled. I’m so sorry for those poor people in Houston. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/26 "2021-11-07T20:03:59Z")
Two weeks back my son went to a Playboi Cardi concert in Houston at the NRG arena. They didn’t even get in and the whole things was canceled as people were rushing the security gates prior to the concert , a crush also happened then as the whole crowd pushed forward, my son and his friends ( all 6ft 17/18 year old swimmers so not small people) struggled to stay up but fortunately a much smaller crowd so there were ways out. I dont know if any lessons were learned or implemented from that mess but I wonder if a factor is that people have not been to concerts etc in such a long time and are just way over amped up . ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/27 "2021-11-07T20:13:22Z")
The crowd to security ratio was 1:40, that seems pretty high , random googling says 1:100 to 1:75 is more typical , but I guess there are actual police professionals here that would know better than me and my random googling. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/28 "2021-11-07T20:24:23Z")
Thanks to those posting about the science of this phenomenon – fighting ignorance. Thanks in particular to @ASL_v2.0 for pointing out how the framing of it can let the people most responsible off the hook. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/29 "2021-11-07T20:38:21Z")
Just an overall number is meaningless. How many were being used as crowd control? How many were working traffic lights a half mile from the venue? ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/30 "2021-11-07T21:56:09Z")
See Hillsborough for details on that… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/31 "2021-11-07T22:54:51Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I have a hard time accepting this as true. A “gentle pace” - no matter the size of the crowd - should not crush anyone. > > Maybe not a stampede, but it’s safe to assume there was leaning, pushing, and surging going on. I’m sorry you have trouble accepting what actually occurs in this circumstances but while it is not always the case there have been significant numbers of documented cases (such as the Hillsborough case mentioned above) it really has happened that the people in the back are NOT violent or shoving/pushing and have absolutely no idea what’s happening some distance away. Yes, it’s hard to wrap your mind around but part of the reason these sorts of things happen is because people don’t see the danger until it’s too late. > [@Filbert](#): > > It’s a bit like that thing where someone brakes a little on a busy road with the traffic flow juuust wrong, and the tiny little slowdown gets exaggerated by every car by an imperceptible amount until you have a 2 mile tailback; no-one’s trying to do anything other than give themselves space and get where they’re trying to go. ^ Yep, sort of like that. Of course, you can also have pushing and shoving leading to a crowd crush. That’s what happened during The Station fire. There, you have a crowd trying to squeeze through a tight space and the people in the back panicked because the place was on fire. The result was a pile up of bodies in the main entry/exit. That’s also what happened at the E2 Nightclub when, again, a crowd panicked and trying to funnel through a very tight space. But in a large, relatively open area (like Hillsborough) there doesn’t have to be pushing and shoving, just cumulative force. Force that not only can asphyxiate people but can also destroy reinforced concrete barriers or steel fencing. > [@Tibby](#): > > Announcement example: _If you are being crushed, or witness people in front of you being crushed, turn around and scream “People Crush! Back Up!”. When you hear people in front of you screaming “People Crush! Back Up!”, continue the scream, like a wave going backward, until people in the back hear it, and stop moving forward._ It won’t work. First, such venues tend to already be extremely noisy, which interferes with communication. Second, by the time you realize you’re in a crush you no longer have sufficient air to yell, much less “scream”. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/32 "2021-11-07T23:02:31Z")
The only time I personally encountered this was the first time I saw Rush back in 1982; it was general-admission and the crew were saying that enough people had made their way to the front of the floor area to make the stage buckle. It took a few times for people to get the message, and they did back up and the rest of the concert was without major incidents. OK, I do remember the man who jumped up on the stage next to Geddy Lee, who was promptly tossed off the stage by the roadies, and a girl I worked with, who went with her boyfriend, and found out why several otherwise good seats were unoccupied; they were covered in drunken vomit, which several people sat in after the lights were dimmed and the show began. Glad I didn’t see or smell that! ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/33 "2021-11-07T23:35:13Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > > > I have a hard time accepting this as true. A “gentle pace” - no matter the size of the crowd - should not crush anyone. > > Well, it IS true. By gently adding one more body at one end, you are forcing everyone to have just a little less space — and for those at the barrier, a little less space—\>can breath out, but can’t breathe back in—\>asphyxiation. > > There was an excellent long article about the research on this a few years ago — was it The New Yorker? I’ll look it up. > > (Note that now reports indicate this ISN’T what happened in Houston last night — that WAS a dynamic surge.) Fair enough, corrected I stand. mmm ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2021, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/34 "2021-11-08T10:26:21Z")
🙂 It surprised me, too. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/35 "2021-11-08T15:07:20Z")
[https://news.yahoo.com/travis-scott-charged-twice-past-111624326.html](https://news.yahoo.com/travis-scott-charged-twice-past-111624326.html) > In 2017 … Scott was arrested after he encouraged fans to bypass security and rush the stage, leaving a security guard, a police officer and several others injured during a concert in Arkansas. 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2021, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/36 "2021-11-08T15:11:07Z")
Well…_gosh_, it seems that being a rule-flouting rebel might have consequences after all… ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2021, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/37 "2021-11-08T15:12:27Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Scott, whose legal name is Jacques Webster, has a history of issues with crowd control at his shows. In August 2015, he was charged with disorderly conduct after police said he urged fans to climb over barricades at Chicago’s Lollapalooza festival and led a chant of “We want rage.” Security stopped Scott five minutes into his performance, and Chicago emergency officials said he fled before being taken into custody. > > Scott pleaded guilty to reckless conduct charges later that year and was ordered under court supervision. That’s a slap on the wrist. He needs to be sued and sued and sued by victims until he is economically destroyed and in debt to victims for the rest of his career. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2021, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/38 "2021-11-08T15:34:36Z")
Sued for what? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/39 "2021-11-08T15:57:59Z")
For inciting a crowd into dangerous and destructive behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887/40 "2021-11-08T16:00:14Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > > [@eschrodinger](#): > > > > Scott, whose legal name is Jacques Webster, has a history of issues with crowd control at his shows. In August 2015, he was charged with disorderly conduct after police said he urged fans to climb over barricades at Chicago’s Lollapalooza festival and led a chant of “We want rage.” Security stopped Scott five minutes into his performance, and Chicago emergency officials said he fled before being taken into custody. > > > > Scott pleaded guilty to reckless conduct charges later that year and was ordered under court supervision. > > That’s a slap on the wrist. He needs to be sued and sued and sued by victims until he is economically destroyed and in debt to victims for the rest of his career. Is that what he did in Houston? Because I’m not seeing that anywhere. His actions in the past have no bearing on this. If he was just performing on stage and doing nothing else he may not have any responsibility at all. Was he in charge of bringing people into the arena? I’ll see you in charge of setting up passive crowd control measures? Was he in charge of having medical personnel in the arena? He will get sued by everyone because he’s the big name but The responsibility may lie completely with those who run the arena. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatal-crowd-surge-at-houston-concert-incident-from-nov2021/953887.md?page=3)