# Fate of Tony Soprano **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 11, 2020, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458 "2020-06-11T15:01:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/61 "2020-06-15T23:50:55Z")
I believe when that episode aired, Chase said something to the effect that there is an unambiguous ending and all the clues are in the episode. I am certain he meant from the beginning that Tony Soprano, and probably his entire family, was killed in that restaurant. So, it’s not an “it’s whatever you interpret” situation. It’s a “read the clues, and you’ll see the ending” situation. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/62 "2020-06-16T00:33:23Z")
From Goodfellas both Jimmy and Paulie died in prison. After getting kicked out of Witness Protection Henry Hill lived openly but nobody whacked him for being a rat. He died of a bad heart. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/63 "2020-06-16T01:26:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I believe when that episode aired, Chase said something to the effect that there is an unambiguous ending and all the clues are in the episode. I am certain he meant from the beginning that Tony Soprano, and probably his entire family, was killed in that restaurant. > > So, it’s not an “it’s whatever you interpret” situation. It’s a “read the clues, and you’ll see the ending” situation. No, he didn’t really say that. Here’s [the interview](https://www.nj.com/alltv/2007/06/david_chase_speaks.html) that he gave just after the finale. > [@](#): > > “I have no interest in explaining, defending, reinterpreting, or adding to what is there,” he says of the final scene. > > “No one was trying to be audacious, honest to God,” he adds. “We did what we thought we had to do. No one was trying to blow people’s minds, or thinking, ‘Wow, this’ll (tick) them off.’ People get the impression that you’re trying to (mess) with them and it’s not true. You’re trying to entertain them.” > > … > > “Anybody who wants to watch it, it’s all there,” says Chase, What “it” is is hardly clear. It’s not necessarily whether Tony is killed or not; it could be that he’ll spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder; or that it doesn’t matter if he lives or dies. Chase has indicated in later comments that he’s not going to give a definite answer besides “It doesn’t matter.” ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/64 "2020-06-16T14:09:13Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > However, in this particular scene, there is a clear alternation between showing Tony, and then showing his viewpoint. It is obvious that this is done very deliberately. That’s a reasonable possibility, but then the cut to black should have happened from Tony’s perspective instead of with the camera looking at him. Unless it’s meant to imply the audience or storyteller was killed, there could have been another cut where we see through Tony’s eyes. I think that would have been a much better storytelling mechanism. We see Tony look up, then cut to Tony’s perspective looking at Meadow. Since Meadow is looking into the restaurant, her facial expressions could indicate what is happening. The audience can then make a more reasonable inferences rather than random guesses. One reason Tony might not have been killed is that the diner scene was very atypical for a hit. It’s packed with people. A table with kids is nearby. If the goal is to kill the whole family, Meadow is at the door where she can easily get away. Certainly a hit can happen there, but if it did, it’s another example of inconsistent storytelling with the rest of the series. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/65 "2020-06-16T15:55:59Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > That’s a reasonable possibility, but then the cut to black should have happened from Tony’s perspective instead of with the camera looking at him. Unless it’s meant to imply the audience or storyteller was killed, there could have been another cut where we see through Tony’s eyes. I think that would have been a much better storytelling mechanism. We see Tony look up, then cut to Tony’s perspective looking at Meadow. Since Meadow is looking into the restaurant, her facial expressions could indicate what is happening. The audience can then make a more reasonable inferences rather than random guesses. > > One reason Tony might not have been killed is that the diner scene was very atypical for a hit. It’s packed with people. A table with kids is nearby. If the goal is to kill the whole family, Meadow is at the door where she can easily get away. Certainly a hit can happen there, but if it did, it’s another example of inconsistent storytelling with the rest of the series. Thought the Italian Mafia in the US really shied away from including family members of Mafia associates and members, if those family members were unaffiliated and uninvolved with Mafia activities? So whacking Tony’s family along with Tony, is probably out. I don’t think the Members Only guy would have had to shoot them either, with the way the shot would line up. Mafia-related assassinations have happened in public places. A famous one was the killing of Carmine Galante in 1979, on the back patio of Joe & Mary’s Italian Restaurant, along with two of his associates. I had thought Paul Castellano’s murder would qualify, but he hadn’t yet entered Spark’s Steakhouse when he was killed. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/66 "2020-06-17T00:19:44Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > That’s a reasonable possibility, but then the cut to black should have happened from Tony’s perspective instead of with the camera looking at him. Unless it’s meant to imply the audience or storyteller was killed, there could have been another cut where we see through Tony’s eyes. I think that would have been a much better storytelling mechanism. We see Tony look up, then cut to Tony’s perspective looking at Meadow. Since Meadow is looking into the restaurant, her facial expressions could indicate what is happening. The repeated rhythm of the scene is door chime \> Tony looks up \> Tony’s POV, so the cut to black IS from Tony’s perspective because he’s dead and all there is is blackness (if he’s dead). If he’s alive, the scene still has to cut to black at the same place because the tension in the scene (and his life) comes from not knowing what will happen next. Seeing Meadow come through the door and then cutting to black would be an anti-climax, whereas cutting to black on Tony looking up places the ending squarely on the highest point of tension where we’re expecting an answer but not getting it. That’s a microcosm of Tony’s life. It’s a great ending because it works both ways. The whole point is about the never knowing… > [@filmore](#): > > The audience can then make a more reasonable inferences rather than random guesses. …which is why Chase didn’t want to allow for reasonable inferences. Giving the audience what they want was not exactly a staple The Sopranos was known for. The ending is Sopranodinger’s Tony, he’s both alive and dead. > [@filmore](#): > > One reason Tony might not have been killed is that the diner scene was very atypical for a hit. It’s packed with people. A table with kids is nearby. If the goal is to kill the whole family, Meadow is at the door where she can easily get away. Certainly a hit can happen there, but if it did, it’s another example of inconsistent storytelling with the rest of the series. Gerry Torciano was hit in a crowed restaurant. Phil Leotardo was hit in the open at a gas station in front of a group of school children. There were several people, children included, in the model train store where Bobby was hit. Rusty Irish was tossed over Paterson Falls in full view of a group of bystanders. Tony could be alive, but it’s not because he was at a crowded restaurant with his family. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/67 "2020-06-17T02:11:21Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > The repeated rhythm of the scene is door chime \> Tony looks up \> Tony’s POV, so the cut to black IS from Tony’s perspective because he’s dead and all there is is blackness (if he’s dead). If this is the case, then it would seem to indicate that he was _not_ killed. We in the audience were looking right at him before the cut to black. If he was killed, we should have seen the bullet hitting his head, heard the shot, or something like that. Tony might not have known someone shot him, but the audience was looking right at him and would have had some indication before the scene changed to his POV. I’m not sure that there’s any way he could even die from natural causes and we wouldn’t know about it. Even if we assume the scene switches to Tony’s black POV at the moment of death from something like a heart attack, we in the audience should have seen something amiss since we were looking right at him. There’s nothing about his face or body to indicate he’s having a health issue. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/68 "2020-06-17T02:59:09Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > If this is the case, then it would seem to indicate that he was _not_ killed. We in the audience were looking right at him before the cut to black. If he was killed, we should have seen the bullet hitting his head, heard the shot, or something like that. Tony might not have known someone shot him, but the audience was looking right at him and would have had some indication before the scene changed to his POV. He would have been shot in the back of the head at extremely close range. The shooter didn’t need to be directly in back of him, in the audience’s view. How long do you think a bullet takes to travel a couple of feet? Too fast to register. And the point was made in an earlier episode when Bobby Bacala says “You don’t hear the one that gets you.” You can argue all you want that “Tony was really killed,” but that’s not how Chase set things up. He set things up so we’re never entirely sure, which was his point. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/69 "2020-06-17T02:59:09Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > If this is the case, then it would seem to indicate that he was _not_ killed. We in the audience were looking right at him before the cut to black. If he was killed, we should have seen the bullet hitting his head, heard the shot, or something like that. Tony might not have known someone shot him, but the audience was looking right at him and would have had some indication before the scene changed to his POV. He would have been shot in the back of the head at extremely close range. The shooter didn’t need to be directly in back of him, in the audience’s view. How long do you think a bullet takes to travel a couple of feet? Too fast to register. And the point was made in an earlier episode when Bobby Bacala says “You don’t hear the one that gets you.” You can argue all you want that “Tony was really killed,” but that’s not how Chase set things up. He set things up so we’re never entirely sure, which was his point. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/70 "2020-06-17T06:01:44Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > If this is the case, then it would seem to indicate that he was _not_ killed. We in the audience were looking right at him before the cut to black. If he was killed, we should have seen the bullet hitting his head, heard the shot, or something like that. Tony might not have known someone shot him, but the audience was looking right at him and would have had some indication before the scene changed to his POV. > > I’m not sure that there’s any way he could even die from natural causes and we wouldn’t know about it. Even if we assume the scene switches to Tony’s black POV at the moment of death from something like a heart attack, we in the audience should have seen something amiss since we were looking right at him. There’s nothing about his face or body to indicate he’s having a health issue. If you want to use that as an example of Tony not being dead, that’s your right. But keep in mind, as already mentioned, it was explicitly pointed out by Bobby that “you probably don’t even hear it when it happens,” which is fair to interpret as yes, it’s as quick as that. One frame you’re blissfuly unaware, the next frame you’re gone. If you’re arguing from a purely mechanical standpoint, as you seem to be, that there had to be some sort of indication preceding the cut to black, you should also keep in mind that the scene wasn’t being live streamed. Editing is an indispensable story telling technique. We might see a lot, but we don’t see everything. When Tony walks into Holsten’s, a closeup of him by the door is immediately cut to him sitting at the table. There was nothing about his face or body to indicate he could transport himself instantaneously. Yet it happened while the audience was looking right at him. You don’t have a problem with that sequence breaking the laws of physics, do you? ---
**Author:** ![shstrang98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shstrang98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shstrang98)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/71 "2020-06-17T15:07:13Z")
> [@The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](#): > > I wondered if perhaps Tony was already dead by the time that scene unfolded and he was just having an end-of-life flash of the people he loved the most. He only loved his kids (if that) so it probably should’ve only shown them. Also someone told me they saw a version where Meadow’s car blew up right after getting out. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/72 "2020-06-17T15:43:10Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > Gerry Torciano was hit in a crowed restaurant. Phil Leotardo was hit in the open at a gas station in front of a group of school children. There were several people, children included, in the model train store where Bobby was hit. Rusty Irish was tossed over Paterson Falls in full view of a group of bystanders. Tony could be alive, but it’s not because he was at a crowded restaurant with his family. For Rusty Irish they gave cash to some bystanders to say he fell. ---
**Author:** ![shstrang98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shstrang98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shstrang98)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/73 "2020-06-17T16:02:40Z")
> [@The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](#): > > I wondered if perhaps Tony was already dead by the time that scene unfolded and he was just having an end-of-life flash of the people he loved the most. He only loved his kids (if that) so it probably should’ve only shown them. Also someone told me they saw a version where Meadow’s car blew up right after getting out. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/74 "2020-06-17T21:45:01Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > For Rusty Irish they gave cash to some bystanders to say he fell. No, the guy took the money and said he “jumped.” Either way, that doesn’t change the fact that it’s not entirely atypical for hits on the show to take place with witnesses around. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/75 "2020-06-17T23:06:31Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Mafia-related assassinations have happened in public places. A famous one was the killing of Carmine Galante in 1979, on the back patio of Joe & Mary’s Italian Restaurant, along with two of his associates. I had thought Paul Castellano’s murder would qualify, but he hadn’t yet entered Spark’s Steakhouse when he was killed. [Joe Colombo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Colombo) was shot in public and paralyzed at the Italian-American Unity Day celebration at Columbus Circle in 1971. Probably in retaliation, [“Crazy Joe” Gallo](https://www.nytimes.com/1972/04/08/archives/joe-gallo-is-shot-to-death-in-little-italy-restaurant-joe-gallo.html) was assassinated as he ate with his wife, sister, and others in Umberto’s Clam House in Little Italy. Another instance from _Sopranos_ (although the hit didn’t take place) is the planned hit by Uncle Junior on Little Pussy at Artie’s Vesuvio Restaurant, which Tony went so far as to burn down the restaurant to prevent. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/76 "2020-06-17T23:10:43Z")
Bobby Baccala was whacked in a Hobby Shop. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/77 "2020-06-18T19:00:44Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > I just saw _Hollywood_ on Netflix, and a scene in the penultimate episode struck me as a possible comment on the _Sopranos_ ending. > > An agent who’s finagled his way into being the producer of a movie, where the climactic scene is the protagonist climbing to the top of the Hollywoodland sign to kill herself and whether she’s going to jump, suggests at an editing screening that the movie end with her jumping but then landing in a swimming pool in an **Ethel Merman** -style swimming scene, so that the audience doesn’t know whether she’s lived or died. The editor tells him in no uncertain terms that it’s the dumbest idea that he’s heard in nearly 40 years of editing movies. 😛 😕 Did you mean Esther Williams? ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/78 "2020-06-18T20:58:34Z")
They whacked Jimmy in a hotel room. Did they stick around and clean his blood from the carpet ? Tony whacked a guy on a boat in a marina and there were probably others around. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/79 "2020-06-18T22:05:28Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Tony whacked a guy on a boat in a marina and there were probably others around. At first I thought you were talking about killing Big Pussy, which took place at sea, but I think you’re referring to [this one,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoTZk3B5uJg) which is pretty public (but there’s no one else in the immediate vicinity). Tony Blundetto kills [Joey Peeps](https://youtu.be/vBRe6-MzTqo?t=184) and [Billy Leotardo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDUTxEnKN3U)on the street, although at night. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458/80 "2020-06-22T17:22:41Z")
This never occurred to me and I really like it. While I wasn’t hooked on the show, I did shoot a few episodes as their Steadicam Operator. James was all-in, at least in the early seasons that I worked on. Glad it went off in style. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fate-of-tony-soprano/855458.md?page=5)