# Father always knows best? Patriarchy in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2001, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-always-knows-best-patriarchy-in-the-u-s/71304 "2001-07-05T05:20:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-always-knows-best-patriarchy-in-the-u-s/71304/21 "2001-07-13T03:37:25Z")
> [@](#): > > CK Pardon me, but why is it that some people (you being the proximate example, I fear) cannot read anything that is even remotely critical of some aspect of the United States without getting all hot under the collar and jumping on to a patriotic soapbox? The article was to do with the results of a survey; its observations regarding those results were extremely measured. Nowhere did the writer claim that the US was a primitive cave-dwelling society populated by sexist Neanderthals. Nowhere did the article allege that the US was the only country to differ statistically from any other country in any fashion. > [@](#): > > Aside: your attempt to credit the US with the notion that all men are created equal is not only misplaced it’s also incorrect. All of the countries involved–not only the US, but also Canada and France–have democratic institutions predicated on the fundamental political equality of all citizens. If you consider Dex’s response “hot under the collar,” I can suggest several posters whom you might wish to avoid at all costs. Dex provided an alternative interpretation to the conclusion drawn by the pollsters. That hardly equates to “flag waving.” And it should be noted that we are getting a very condensed synopsis of the _conclusions_ drawn by the pollsters. However “measured” you believe their poll to be, its specific claim to a 48% agreement of their _conclusions_ is not supported by any _evidence_ that they have presented. As a quick comparison: Gallup has polled Americans on their beliefs regarding evolution and creation on several occasions. Some commentators seize the point that only 9-11% of those polled believe in a totally atheistic/random description of the origins of the universe as “troubling” that 90% of the people believe in Creationism while other commentators point “triumphantly” to the figures as showing that “(Godless) evolutionists” are out of step with their fellow citizens. Yet a reading of the actual poll results show that when we throw in the 45% or so of people who are Theistic Evolutionists, there is actually a _majority_ of people who accept the scientific basis of evolution. In the case of the poll under discussion, we have no record of the questions asked and no record of the actual results. We have only the interpretation of the data handed to us to accept. Lacking any genuine facts, I think we are perfectly justified in guessing what it “really means.” The author makes a point of talking about the “consistent” results, but never provides any information as to _what_ was asked or _how_ it was decided. * * * As to your aside: The U.S. has certainly had a rocky road toward recognizing the equality of its people, however, _at the time of its founding_, all the societies to which you refer had an established nobility and aristocracy (along with the slavery from which we suffered). While Dex did not claim that we “invented” the notion of equal rights, the U.S. was the first country to proclaim as a part of its foundation (however hypocritically) that equal rights were an essential element of its nature. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-always-knows-best-patriarchy-in-the-u-s/71304/22 "2001-07-13T04:35:19Z")
\*\*The Witch \*\*, I was surprised by the percentages, not by the attitudes expressed. Although I agree with some of the posters (including **CK** ) that the question might been misinterpreted by some respondents. _“I don’t think it’s increasing conservatism that’s causing all of it–I think it’s nostalgia for an ideal that never existed and consumerism that is driving this current wave.”_ Allow me to clarify: I don’t see increasing conservatism as a _cause_ of resurgent patriarchal attitudes; I see resurgent patriarchal attitudes as conservative. (Though I’d agree that _The Surrendered Wife_ kind of stuff can be marketed, to a point, to women with fairly mainstream political attitudes.) As to consumerism, you won’t get me to disagree; OTOH, this type of stuff wouldn’t have been marketed 10 or even five years ago, IMO. _"I would expect a drive for security to happen in conjunction with economic insecurity. That’s the reason I think the driving force is nostalgia–the rise in popularity of patriarchal ideals is occurring in a time of widespread prosperity._ Well, there’s always been nostalgia. Look at the '50s nostalgia that gave us shows like “Happy Days” when I was a kid. I think you have to ask what the nostalgia is for: and in this instance, it’s for a conservative stance on relations between the sexes, no? That said, I totally agree with you about the impact of consumerism: let’s just say that there’s an unholy alliance between consumer hype and conservative trends of various kinds (although there are, of course, exceptions). **Tom** : _“If you consider Dex’s response “hot under the collar,” I can suggest several posters whom you might wish to avoid at all costs.”_ Ah, I’m pretty sure I’ve already met those posters 😉 If truth be told I had originally written “defensive” but I didn’t want **DDG** to think I was belaboring my original post with reference to her. So, perhaps, to be just to **DDG** I was unjust to **CK**. If so, I regret the exaggeration. _"Dex provided an alternative interpretation to the conclusion drawn by the pollsters. That hardly equates to “flag waving.”_ The alternative interpretation did not. Some of the other stuff, to my mind, did. I could not help but think that had the poll been conducted by some US group and published in _The Washington Post_ the response would have been different. And I don’t feel that there’s any justification for that kind of oversensitivity to international discussion of US culture. _“It should be noted that we are getting a very condensed synopsis of the conclusions drawn by the pollsters. However “measured” you believe their poll to be,”_ You have misunderstood me. I have said (several times, including in my post to **CK** ) that I can’t speak for the accuracy of the poll. What I actually said was that the observations made in the article _about_ the poll were “measured”-- by which I meant rhetorically moderate. Hence my contrast to the sexist caved-welling Americans that the Canadian article did _not_ take us to be 😉 You may be certain, **Tom** that I too am aware that polls can be misleading and/or methodologically invalid: every single post I’ve made on this subject has included at least one qualification of that sort. _"As to your aside: The U.S. has certainly had a rocky road toward recognizing the equality of its people, however, at the time of its founding, all the societies to which you refer had an established nobility and aristocracy (along with the slavery from which we suffered). While Dex did not claim that we “invented” the notion of equal rights, the U.S. was the first country to proclaim as a part of its foundation (however hypocritically) that equal rights were an essential element of its nature._ I’m sorry **Tom** , but I see this as hair-splitting. Of course colonial America had no aristocracy. And **CK** ’s comments were implied rather than stated. That said, I believe my comments are justified. Americans–including some smart and well-educated Americans–tend to bridle whenever people from other countries make even very moderately critical assertions about the US. Undoubtedly this is true for other nationals as well. But here is a case where we have poll: a poll to be sure of questionable accuracy; a poll that may have asked the pertinent question in a misleading way. However, the poll is reported in a fairly unsensationalistic way. The query of the poll I **entirely** understand and sympathize with. But why the need to point out that Japan is materialistic, that France is French? Why the need to congratulate ourselves for not being Chinese communists? Why the need to remind ourselves, _in this particular context_, that the US has been at the vanguard of some democratic institutions? Why not just discuss the OP instead? What’s been alleged is _only_ that the US appears to have become more culturally conservative and anti-feminist. Is this really in dispute? To be honest, I have lived both in France and the UK (although in the former only for a very short time); and I found the US a much less sexist society than either in many respects. I think it still is. But right now, certain kinds of reactionary attitudes are gaining ground in the US and the “culture wars” are becoming ever more divisive. This is simply much less the case in far more secular countries such as Britain and France. Over in another thread **Ben** has just posted a link to a discussion of anti-evolutionary legislation. So far no one has responded, but it would be interesting to know how people might respond differently if the same link were to a Canadian or other international source. So that’s my point. The OP asked us to discuss patriarchy in the US and discuss the validity of the poll. Can we not do this in good faith? Or must we divert some of our energies into defending ourselves against the imagined snickers of Canadians? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e7dd6/32.png) [@The\_Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Witch)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2001, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-always-knows-best-patriarchy-in-the-u-s/71304/23 "2001-07-14T18:43:04Z")
**Mandelstam** , upon reflection, I think what I was reacting to in my conservatism v. nostalgia discussion was **Duck Duck Goose** ’s statement that this was somehow just the inevitable swing of the pendulum. That to me says a couple of things. One, it’s natural and not driven by anyone’s ideas in particular, and two, it’s nothing to worry about because it will just swing back the other way. Both of these imply that those who don’t agree need do nothing activist–in fact, they imply that activism is useless. I am very worried about what the current public sentiment means for issues I hold dear, and encouraging passivity, seems very dangerous to me. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-always-knows-best-patriarchy-in-the-u-s/71304/24 "2001-07-15T04:23:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Witch \* > \*\*I am very worried about what the current public sentiment means for issues I hold dear, and encouraging passivity, seems very dangerous to me. \*\* Ah, then you must be (to quote Dorothy) a very good Witch. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e7dd6/32.png) [@The\_Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Witch)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-always-knows-best-patriarchy-in-the-u-s/71304/25 "2001-07-16T13:59:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Mandelstam:_ > Ah, then you must be (to quote Dorothy) a very good Witch. Depends on who you ask–my goodness (or wickedness) is in the eye of the beholder. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-always-knows-best-patriarchy-in-the-u-s/71304.md?page=1)