# Father/Daughter Purity Ball - Jesus Goes on Hiatus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220 "2006-04-18T21:57:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/101 "2006-04-20T23:03:34Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > I don’t see what’s wrong with having a 11 year old making an oath she/he doesn’t understand. . You don’t see what’s wrong with someone making an oath she doesn’t understand??? What value do you put in an oath, then? Would you yourself make an oath you wouldn’t really understand? I’m even more surprised to hear such a statement coming from a commited believer… Swearing wouldn’t be something a (non-casual) christian (I’m assuming you’re a christian) would take lightly, in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/102 "2006-04-20T23:58:35Z")
**clairobscur** , I see young children taking oaths as an extension of the process of brainwashing children to believe in whatever values you wish your children to hold. “Don’t ever lie, Johnny.” “Yes, Mom.” I don’t see anything wrong with parents pushing their children to make a commitment, even though children don’t understand _anything_… whether it be lying, or never eating meat, or never taking drugs, or no sex till marriage. That’s just part of how society functions and passes its values to the next generation. In fact, baptisms, bat/bar mitzvahs, and other similar ceremonies tend to happen around that age. _shrug_ I’m also an atheist, so I’m not particularly concerned with the “sacredness” of these vows. **DianaG** , on the contrary, I was taught that pornography and masturbation were great sins, and I honestly had the impression that only “bad” men did anything of the sort. I was also told that it’d be my job to tell my husband about women’s cycles. Yes, I was that incredibly naive. So, no, it wasn’t a self-fulfilling prophecy, though I’ll admit that perhaps my dating pool was pretty bad. You do make a good point about him being a slut and not me, though; wish you’d been around a few years back. > [@](#): > > That also still doesn’t address how her virtue belongs to her father to guard. Mea culpa. Here goes: I’ve heard many of those oaths on the father’s part–if anything, it’s for the father’s benefit rather than the daughter’s. Sure, you have your control freaks–but my dad was definitely not one of them. It’s more of a PromiseKeepers “I will focus on my role as a father and as a husband” commitment. Don’t parse the words too much. There are social issues in fundamentalist circles, and fathers not sticking around is one of them, so in the last 10 years or so there’s been a renewed effort to fight that by affirming roles as a leader of household (and being a good leader means not abusing the role). > [@](#): > > Well, a lot of guys suck. And a lot of guys don’t. As a teenage male myself, i’m pretty insulted by this, actually. If I were to go into a thread and say “all girls are sluts”, i’d be attacked so quickly my head’d spin. Please accept my apologies for my inflammatory remarks, and for such a broad brush. It wasn’t my intention to paint men as “pigs”; rather as the product of the hormones that nature gave them. I don’t think Quagmire types “suck”–they just aren’t my type, and they do make a lot of women happy. Any other argument I make will quickly devolve into the semantics of “love”, but I’ll take back my remark that teenage guys are incapable of feeling love. I was wrong, and I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/103 "2006-04-21T00:06:57Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > Please accept my apologies for my inflammatory remarks, and for such a broad brush. It wasn’t my intention to paint men as “pigs”; rather as the product of the hormones that nature gave them. I don’t think Quagmire types “suck”–they just aren’t my type, and they do make a lot of women happy. Any other argument I make will quickly devolve into the semantics of “love”, but I’ll take back my remark that teenage guys are incapable of feeling love. I was wrong, and I’m sorry. Fair enough. Like you say, there definetly are men like that, and a considerable amount of teenagers are Quagmire types (extra points for being a Family Guy fan, btw 😛 ). It was just your use of the broad brush that annoyed me; thanks for apologising, and consider yourself forgiven. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/104 "2006-04-21T03:45:04Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > I have told my daughters in no uncertain terms that I am not “giving them away” when they marry. If the priest/minister/imam/druid asks anyway, my response will be, “She gives herself.” Priest: Who gives this woman in marriage? Groom: Ha! Who _give_? Thag _take_ woman! _Thumps chest_ ---
**Author:** ![Idlewild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8491ac/32.png) [@Idlewild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idlewild)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/105 "2006-04-21T04:18:01Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > **clairobscur** , I see young children taking oaths as an extension of the process of brainwashing children to believe in whatever values you wish your children to hold. “Don’t ever lie, Johnny.” “Yes, Mom.” I don’t see anything wrong with parents pushing their children to make a commitment, even though children don’t understand _anything_… whether it be lying, or never eating meat, or never taking drugs, or no sex till marriage. That’s just part of how society functions and passes its values to the next generation. In fact, baptisms, bat/bar mitzvahs, and other similar ceremonies tend to happen around that age. _shrug_ I’m also an atheist, so I’m not particularly concerned with the “sacredness” of these vows. This here pushes my buttons all kinds of ways. I was raised Christian and sought out confirmation at the age of 9 or 10 because I was so damn convicted of the beliefs that I’d inhaled from birth - church as an infant and infant baptism, sunday school, bible study in the mornings at home, scripture class at school- that I made some heavy vows and committments that I have since had cause to have to break. Had I been presented with a chastity vow at that age I’d have taken that too. No question. But I would not have been qualified to make that decision. No matter how much _I_ felt that as a 10 year old I was competent to make lifetime commitments that is simply not true. This is why many parishes have a _minimum_ age at which a child can be confirmed. I don’t think pushing chastity vows on 11 year olds is at all fair to them as reasonable beings who may wish to be responsible for keeping their word but are not yet old enough to fully understand the consequences of the promises that they’re making. I am an atheist and I don’t see what that’s got to do with not wanting to be pushed into a position that sets me up to be an oathbreaker. Valuing one’s word does not have to be a religious matter! ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/106 "2006-04-21T05:01:49Z")
> [@Idlewild](#): > > This here pushes my buttons all kinds of ways. I was raised Christian and sought out confirmation at the age of 9 or 10 because I was so damn convicted of the beliefs that I’d inhaled from birth - church as an infant and infant baptism, sunday school, bible study in the mornings at home, scripture class at school- that I made some heavy vows and committments that I have since had cause to have to break. No offense, but you shouldn’t be beating yourself up over making promises at age 10 you couldn’t keep as an adult. > [@](#): > > I am an atheist and I don’t see what that’s got to do with not wanting to be pushed into a position that sets me up to be an oathbreaker. Valuing one’s word does not have to be a religious matter! There’s no question that knowingly making your kids take vows they can’t keep is wrong, but the parents feel that their children are capable of making such pledges, and the children themselves feel the same way, so what do we care? Fact is, you can’t draw a line between “mature enough” and “not mature enough”, particularly when the child may already be struggling with the very same issues at the center of the promise. It’s up to the parent to decide if his/her child is capable of handling the commitment–and none of our businesses. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/107 "2006-04-21T05:20:56Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > There’s no question that knowingly making your kids take vows they can’t keep is wrong, but the parents feel that their children are capable of making such pledges, and the children themselves feel the same way, so what do we care? Fact is, you can’t draw a line between “mature enough” and “not mature enough”, particularly when the child may already be struggling with the very same issues at the center of the promise. How old are you, fucking 12? You sound like you’re trying to convince your mom to let you get a tatoo. I don’t give a shit how the child “feels.” Children are not capable of understanding this kind of decision and that’s all there is to it. We draw “lines of maturity” all the time as to alcohol, driving, voting, and, of course, sex. Anyone who thinks exactly the same way at 20 as they did at 11 has some serious fucking issues. > [@](#): > > It’s up to the parent to decide if his/her child is capable of handling the commitment No it isn’t. > [@](#): > > –and none of our businesses. And none of the parents’ business. ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/108 "2006-04-21T05:30:19Z")
DtC… > [@dre2xl](#): > > There’s no question that knowingly making your kids take vows they can’t keep is wrong, but the parents feel that their children are capable of making such pledges, _ **and the children themselves feel the same way** _, so what do we care? G’nite. ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/109 "2006-04-21T05:31:23Z")
Note to Self: “Go Advanced” is a very good button. > [@dre2xl](#): > > There’s no question that knowingly making your kids take vows they can’t keep is wrong, but the parents feel that their children are capable of making such pledges, **and the children themselves feel the same way** , so what do we care? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/110 "2006-04-21T05:34:01Z")
It’s irrelevant how the children feel. Children are not capable of understanding what they’re committing to. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/111 "2006-04-21T05:47:35Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > An oath isn’t just something you can break whenever you want. An oath is a promise, and i’m sure you’d agree that the subject of sex before marriage is a very important one. Are you _really_ fine with someone making a promise on such an important issue when they don’t even understand it? “God will not take you to task for a slip in your oaths; but he will take you to task for what your hearts have earned; for God is forgiving, forbearing.” —Qur’an 2:225 ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/112 "2006-04-21T06:07:53Z")
…Another night of insomnia. I think I’ll go to the gym after this post. > [@](#): > > And none of the parents’ business. Which I take it to mean that it’s the child’s business. Correct me if I’m wrong. > [@](#): > > It’s irrelevant how the children feel. Children are not capable of understanding what they’re committing to. What course of action is a parent supposed to take if a child wants to make a commitment? I can understand and agree with the premise that a parent shouldn’t force a child to make a commitment (with a caveat that I won’t cover here), but how do you deal with Suzy saying, “I’m joining the PETA” when you know she just doesn’t want to eat broiled chicken without making it your business? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/113 "2006-04-21T06:22:37Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > Which I take it to mean that it’s the child’s business. Correct me if I’m wrong. I’m saying that it’s a decision which can’t be made by _anyone_ while the child is that young. When the girl is old enough, it will be her decision alone. At no time does a parent have any right to make decisions as to what kind of sexual morality their children must adhere to as adults. > [@](#): > > What course of action is a parent supposed to take if a child wants to make a commitment? I can understand and agree with the premise that a parent shouldn’t force a child to make a commitment (with a caveat that I won’t cover here), but how do you deal with Suzy saying, “I’m joining the PETA” when you know she just doesn’t want to eat broiled chicken without making it your business? The parent should humor the kids’ whims and phases and privately dismiss it all as the immature prattle and identity searching that it is. They don’t have to _forbid_ them from doing it but it’s stupid to formalize it or to appoint oneself as guardian of it and they certainly don’t have a right to coerce it (and I don’t really believe that there isn’t at least some coercion going on with all these girls, however subtle or passive-aggressive it may be. Religious brainwashing in itself is a form of coersion). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/114 "2006-04-21T06:27:18Z")
I forgot to add that they should also be made to feel that they are allowed to change their minds any time they want. Children have no obligation to honor any vow whatsoever. Vows are for adults and even then I don’t believe any vow is sacred for any longer than a given person feels it is. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/115 "2006-04-21T07:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > **thirdwarning** : Purity comes from choices made, decisions not to engage in what many people see as sin…\ It’s keeping oneself from sin, just as you do with other choices you make, like not stealing, or not lying, not hurting other people. Then have a ceremony in which young people of both sexes pledge to try to live as pure a life as possible _without going into every possible detail and sin_ and the parents of both sexes pledge their support and encouragement. That way the _CHILD_ does not have to draw attention to her private parts in public and neither the children nor the parents have to play out the same old stereotypical roles of the 1950’s. > [@](#): > > As I’ve said, I do agree with you that if this is happening it should be from both sides, sons as well as daughters, and I wish more dads would make a big deal about this with their sons. I wish more mothers also would make a big deal about this with their sons. Pax ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/116 "2006-04-21T07:58:03Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > “God will not take you to task for a slip in your oaths; but he will take you to task for what your hearts have earned; for God is forgiving, forbearing.” > —Qur’an 2:225 God has infinite patience. People on Earth generally don’t, and it’s them that i’m more concerned about (being agnostic, anyway). If I swore an oath in front of people, i’m going to be expected to carry it out. And if I don’t…well, the level of trust i’m going to get has decreased. ---
**Author:** ![hyperjes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@hyperjes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hyperjes)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/117 "2006-04-21T10:24:33Z")
Holy jumping messiahs. You know, I haven’t posted here in so long that I don’t even know how long it has been. I pop back in occasionally to browse, so came across this thread. I read the original link. I read the follow-up links. The whole thing was silly, pompous and overly optimistic to me- then I read that some of the children at this event are as young as _four years old._ \ ***FOUR?** \* Oh, I’m sure that child knows just why she is there. I’m sure the promise she makes is really meaningful to her. I can just see the conversation: Daddy: “Hi pumpkin. Would you like to go to a special dance with Daddy?” Little Girl: “Yes Daddy! Can I wear a princess dress?” Daddy: “Of course, sweetheart. But you have to promise to stay a virgin until you get married.” Little Girl: “What’s a virgin?” Daddy: “That means you can’t let boys touch your private parts (or insert cutesy euphemism of your choice) until you get married.” Little Girl: “GROSS! Why would I do that?” Daddy: “That’s my good girl.” Yup. I’m sure that pledge will be completely heart-felt and meaningful. The child taking the oath absolutely understands all of the implications. Mmmmhmmm… Of course, some of you are saying that it doesn’t matter if she understands what she is saying. So what is the poor kid- a prop? Just something to show of Daddy’s dominance? “Look what I control! Aaah… I see you have some females that you control too! Good man. Aren’t they cute?” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/118 "2006-04-21T16:51:45Z")
> [@hyperjes](#): > > So what is the poor kid- a prop? Yep, that’s it exactly. As others have said, this is generally _not_ for the benefit of the children (particularly the very young). It’s play-acting in a new cultural/social ritual. Of course, there is potentially a lot to be said for ritual, even if the meaning is lost on those who are performing it. The implications of this one, however, are just… putting a child’s sex on parade is just upsetting, and I’m a little surprised that this isn’t aparent to those participating. The fascination with the state of young women/girls’ virginity to the extent of ritualizing an event around it is _very_ sexual, and the event becomes a thinly veiled celebration of fertility and male-dominated sexual/power roles. It’s nice to know that even those who find it sinful in most circumstances can’t break away from their obsession with sex. This is a party about sex, not staying free of sin. ---
**Author:** ![Stentor\_2.5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc8723/32.png) [@Stentor\_2.5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stentor_2.5)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/119 "2006-04-21T17:06:17Z")
As far as I’m concerned it’s just a dance. The “virginity vow” has the same binding power as a double pinkie swear with a cross-your-heart-and-hope-to-die clause. Yeah, the dads in this case are just making their daughters props in proving to others what good parents they are. Have you ever taken your family to the company picnic? Same thing. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220/120 "2006-04-21T17:15:28Z")
Do they discuss your kids sex lives at your company picnic? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-daughter-purity-ball-jesus-goes-on-hiatus/353220.md?page=7)