# Father kills "gay" toddler **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2005, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486 "2005-07-14T08:51:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/21 "2005-07-14T11:59:46Z")
Wow, nice reading, Captain Missed-the-Point! > [@duffer](#): > > Fuck, does this have to be the rallying cry for defeating homophobia?!? What about the straight kids killed at age 3? Fuck those kids and give the killer a life sentence? Death only is an option if the kid is gay. Ahem, as perceived by a sick fuck?!? Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying, only the killers of gay children deserve the death penalty. Actually I’m not saying that at all, I was simply engaged in a little hyperbole. There is nothing that could make me support the death penalty. But the death penalty is not the subject of this thread, so let’s not continue the hijack. But yes, this really ought to be a rallying cry for defeating homophobia. It shouldn’t have to be; we really shouldn’t need rallying cries for defeating irrationality. However, if rallying cry we need, then rallying cry let this be. Let the death of a three year-old child at the hands of a parent who was horrified that the child might turn out to be gay be the rallying cry for ending homophobia. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/22 "2005-07-14T12:00:41Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Okay, so what does he get to use, huh? This man killed his toddler son solely because he thought he might be gay and he was trying to toughen him up. How is that not evidence that homophobia is a troublesome social ill? Well, to pick at the nits, it’s evidence that this is a seriously sick motherfucker and nothing else. It’s not “evidence” of what you think, I think or \*\*matt \*\*thinks or of the general zeitgiest towards homosexuality. If it was a large, socially sanctioned group of people killing children for suspicion of gayness, then it might be evidence of a troublesome social ill. One person is not a social. I can understand that things hit closer to home when they’re, well, close to home, but \*\*duffer \*\*does have a point. So I think that homophobia is a serious social ill? Yes, I do. But this case is hardly conclusive evidence of that. And, lest I seem to be defending the bastard, let me reiterate that he’s a sick fuck who, if the gods are just, will soon be living a long incarcerated life and learning first hand what homosexual rape is like. There’s Karma for you. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/23 "2005-07-14T12:07:51Z")
This happened in Florida? Time to fire up Old Sparky! The bastard deserves to die. This is just so sad, I lose my mind when I hear about a child being killed. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/24 "2005-07-14T12:08:52Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Okay, so what does he get to use, huh? This man killed his toddler son solely because he thought he might be gay and he was trying to toughen him up. How is that not evidence that homophobia is a troublesome social ill? Trying not to begin this sentence with an “um”, but I’d say that a man who beats and abuses his toddler son to death _for any reason_ does it because he’s a sick fuck, and it wouldn’t make that much difference whether homophobia is a troublesome social ill or not. Frankly, anyone who thinks a 2-year-old child has a meaningfully defined sexuality wants his fucking head examined, IMHO, though I’m not an expert in the field. > [@Zakalwe](#): > > I guess next time a white man kills a black man because he’s black, we can’t use that to decry racism. Female genital mutilation? A crime, but not to be used to demonstrate misogyny (at least according to Malacandra and duffer). The first analogy is inexact. Sharpening the focus a little, if an adult man kills a black _toddler_, the issue is not black rights but sick fucks who kill toddlers. The second? Decry female genital mutilation because it is an abominable act, assuredly, but is it actually misogyny? If so, a distressing number of older women in the countries where it’s performed are complicit in misogyny. Say rather that a culture that mandates the mutilation of female genitals has got some seriously twisted ideas about female sexuality and a stupid and vile rite of passage for its adolescent girls. No need to cry “misogyny” when there is already some specific evil to oppose. > [@Zakalwe](#): > > Look, while you may aspire to the higher standard of “all harm is equal”, it’s not unnatural to have a stronger reaction to harm against those with whom you identify. If **matt\_mcl** or **Otto** identify with, as gay adult men, a toddler whose homosexuality almost certainly existed only in the diseased mind of the sick fuck who murdered him, I think they have what’s termed “issues”. Otherwise, agreed; indignation is the more easily aroused when it’s your own ox that is being gored. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/25 "2005-07-14T13:03:37Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > If **matt\_mcl** or **Otto** identify with, as gay adult men, a toddler whose homosexuality almost certainly existed only in the diseased mind of the sick fuck who murdered him, I think they have what’s termed “issues”. Otherwise, agreed; indignation is the more easily aroused when it’s your own ox that is being gored. I’m sure those two can speak for themselves, but I’d say what they identify with is the kid’s brutal death because the sick fuck was a raging homophobe, that it represents all the sick fucks out there who’d gladly kill anyone they think is queer. That’s not an issue, it’s another reminder of the threat they live with every day just because of who they are. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/26 "2005-07-14T13:20:38Z")
That is understandable, ETF. But doesn’t the way Otto framed it at least teeter toward the complaint that many of their otherwise sympathetic opposition have — namely, that they are focused too narrowly on their own interests? I’m not saying that I think that, but that there are people who do think that, and that saying things like you will consider changing your mind about a fundamental issue solely on the basis of its impact on you alone merely serves to isolate, rather than integrate, your cause. I’m sure that that was not Otto’s intention. Nevertheless, at this point, he ought to retract or rephrase what he said and move on. This should not be a rallying cry against homophobia, but a rallying cry against all tyranny and hate. Doesn’t it make sense that people who seek inclusion ought not to exercise exclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/27 "2005-07-14T13:21:59Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Ok, you’re either an Indian or you’ve got a lot of Indian blood. WE GET IT! > > Marc Yeah, and you’re either a dick or mostly a dick. I get it. Way to miss the point, jackass. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/28 "2005-07-14T13:22:59Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Decry female genital mutilation because it is an abominable act, assuredly, but is it actually misogyny? If so, a distressing number of older women in the countries where it’s performed are complicit in misogyny. Say rather that a culture that mandates the mutilation of female genitals has got some seriously twisted ideas about female sexuality and a stupid and vile rite of passage for its adolescent girls. No need to cry “misogyny” when there is already some specific evil to oppose. Well, yes, actually. It IS misogyny. To claim that women can’t be misogynistic is to not understand human nature very well. There are many, many homophobic homosexuals (look at people like Arthur Finkelstein or whoever that very anti-gay Congressman who just resigned because he was outed was) and there are many, many misogynistic women. Any woman who lives in a misogynistic society and buys into the general cultural views on women is as misogynistic as the society involved. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/29 "2005-07-14T13:33:33Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > This should not be a rallying cry against homophobia, but a rallying cry against all tyranny and hate. Don’t you think there’s just an _itty bitty_ bit of irony in you criticizing someone for using a tragedy to advocate their pet issue, and then using the word “tyranny” to describe brutal child abuse? ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/30 "2005-07-14T13:44:35Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Any chance we could wish death on this shit bag for killing A CHILD?!? > > Fuck, does this have to be the rallying cry for defeating homophobia?!? What about the straight kids killed at age 3? Fuck those kids and give the killer a life sentence? Death only is an option if the kid is gay. Ahem, as perceived by a sick fuck?!? > > Where the fuck were you and Otto calling for the death penalty in any of the other numerous cases lately of kids being killed? (And raped along the way) > > Talk about a narrow world view. If it can be kinda, sorta, maybe linked to the sexual preference of A 3 YEAR OLD it deserves death. If the kid is straight, for whatever reason, the death penalty isn’t justified. > > Sorry to both of you, but it was a fucking kid plain and simple. That is what deserves the shitball be put down. I really hate this logic. Is this how it’s going to work now? Every time anyone posts anything in the pit someone else swoops in and says “Oh yeah why didn’t you post when a vaguely similar event happened six months ago?!?” We pit stuff that affects us personally. **Otto** is free to post about a child being killed as a result of homophobia, and I’ll feel free to post if a Sunday school teacher is murdered for being a Christian. And we’ll read each others posts, commiserate, and the world will keep on turning. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/31 "2005-07-14T13:48:08Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Don’t you think there’s just an _itty bitty_ bit of irony in you criticizing someone for using a tragedy to advocate their pet issue, and then using the word “tyranny” to describe brutal child abuse? “Extreme harshness or severity” — _American Heritage_ ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/32 "2005-07-14T13:56:25Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > “Extreme harshness or severity” — _American Heritage_ Right, but I think very few people would use the word to describe child abuse. It’s usually used to describe governments and other political entities. I think you know that, but will argue for that usage anyways because it’s your pet. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/33 "2005-07-14T14:05:48Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Wow, nice reading, Captain Missed-the-Point! > > Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying, only the killers of gay children deserve the death penalty. > > Actually I’m not saying that at all, I was simply engaged in a little hyperbole. There is nothing that could make me support the death penalty. But the death penalty is not the subject of this thread, so let’s not continue the hijack. > > But yes, this really ought to be a rallying cry for defeating homophobia. It shouldn’t have to be; we really shouldn’t need rallying cries for defeating irrationality. However, if rallying cry we need, then rallying cry let this be. Let the death of a three year-old child at the hands of a parent who was horrified that the child might turn out to be gay be the rallying cry for ending homophobia. Prezactly. There is nothing in Otto’s post that suggests he wouldn’t give a shit if the kid wasn’t perceived to be gay; but he WAS perceived to be gay and he was beaten to death because he was perceived to be gay. The gist of his post was that if someone could kill a little kid because he thinks the kid _might_ be gay, the problem of homophobia in our country is out of fucking control. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/34 "2005-07-14T14:12:32Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Ok, you’re either an Indian or you’ve got a lot of Indian blood. WE GET IT! Did you hear that whooshing sound there? I think my ears popped, it was so loud. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/35 "2005-07-14T14:12:49Z")
And the worst of it… you just know that somewhere out there something similar is happening to other kids. Kids whose tragic lives haven’t made the news yet. We may, one day, cure cancer. But I fear never this one. I feel sick. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/36 "2005-07-14T14:16:47Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > If **matt\_mcl** or **Otto** identify with, as gay adult men, a toddler whose homosexuality almost certainly existed only in the diseased mind of the sick fuck who murdered him, I think they have what’s termed “issues”. I think you’re what’s termed “a dumbass.” It’s not about “identifying” with a toddler. It’s about a brutal hate crime. A person was killed because of another person’s loathing of homosexuality. How old does the victim of an anti-gay attack have to be before it’s all right to decry the homophobia that motivated it? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/37 "2005-07-14T14:24:32Z")
Why is it okay to wish even this particular villain shoud suffer from a crime? Where does that lead you in the judicial/punitive realm? What should happen to/for the person who “treats him the same way” while he’s incarcerated? Should that person be released because he did something good? What if that person’s incarcerated for a similar offense? Or perhaps we could stop with the asinine “let’s hope he gets raped in prison” and similar commments and just get on with deciding what would really be a fit, legal punishment, and one that doesn’t broker us down to his level? ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/38 "2005-07-14T14:28:08Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > I think you’re what’s termed “a dumbass.” > > It’s not about “identifying” with a toddler. It’s about a brutal hate crime. A person was killed because of another person’s loathing of homosexuality. How old does the victim of an anti-gay attack have to be before it’s all right to decry the homophobia that motivated it? I’m not a fan of the whole hate crime thing, but 15 years just isn’t enough. I’d press for this to be charged as a hate crime to hopefully enhance the penalty. A lot. This is just a damn sad story. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/39 "2005-07-14T14:32:41Z")
I have thoughts similar to Monty’s. It gets a little creepy to see, in every thread about some horrible crime, somebody cackling and rubbing his hands while they fantasize about rape and brutality in prison. The notion that abusers of children are singled out is, as one person recently pointed out, mostly rumors. Another poster said it “was the most disappointing thing” he’d ever read on SDMB. I do not think I care less for the victims of the crime because I don’t get any solace from contemplating the beating and rape a criminal will get in prison; nor do I think you are more moral or righteous for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/40 "2005-07-14T14:34:29Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why is it okay to wish even this particular villain shoud suffer from a crime? Where does that lead you in the judicial/punitive realm? What should happen to/for the person who “treats him the same way” while he’s incarcerated? Should that person be released because he did something good? What if that person’s incarcerated for a similar offense? > > Or perhaps we could stop with the asinine “let’s hope he gets raped in prison” and similar commments and just get on with deciding what would really be a fit, legal punishment, and one that doesn’t broker us down to his level? That’d make for a good rant. “Good day Lords and Ladies. Perhaps you’ve heard about the gentleman in Florida who ended his young son’s life on the notion that the lad was a dandy. I feel in these situations the death penalty may indeed be warranted, however I understand that reasonable people may disagree. What say you, Dopers?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486.md?page=3)