# Father kills "gay" toddler **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2005, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486 "2005-07-14T08:51:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/81 "2005-07-14T17:02:38Z")
**faithfool** -I’m honestly very sad that you feel like that. You seem like a nice person. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/82 "2005-07-14T17:07:24Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I notice that so many people who offer “better off dead” arguments on either side of the political aisle aren’t ever in much of a hurry to shuffle off this mortal coil themselves. There has been at least one thread where we discussed our wishes to die if very ill or in terrible circumstances - several around the time of Terry Schiavo, but I remember one completely unrelated one started by Eve. Every time, the vast majority of posters indicates that their own death is preferable to suffering. And there’s no doubt this child suffered. … I’ve been thinking about my comment (though it certainly wasn’t intended as gleeful) about the Karmic retribution of the possibility of prison rape. That was wrong and thickheaded of me, and I apologize for bringing it up. While I’m not always opposed to vigilante justice, I am \*always \*opposed to rape. While it amuses me in a sick way that this man, who was so homophobic as to kill a child, has chosen an act that puts him in a likelier position to be forced into homosexuality, it is ironic in the grimmest, gallows humor sort of way. It was not and is not my contention that this is a good thing, nor that it should be encouraged as punishment. I apologize again if my clumsy wording did not make that clear. You have encouraged me to think more carefully next time I write something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/83 "2005-07-14T17:13:59Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > While it amuses me in a sick way that this man, who was so homophobic as to kill a child, has chosen an act that puts him in a likelier position to be **forced into homosexuality** , it is ironic in the grimmest, gallows humor sort of way. While I’m sure you didn’t mean anything by that, some would take issue with the way you used “homosexuality” there. He may be forced into _homosexual acts_, but his sexual orientation isn’t going to be changed by prison life. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/84 "2005-07-14T17:16:29Z")
Oh, and kudos for retracting the prison-rape wishes. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/85 "2005-07-14T17:22:01Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > While I’m sure you didn’t mean anything by that, some would take issue with the way you used “homosexuality” there. He may be forced into _homosexual acts_, but his sexual orientation isn’t going to be changed by prison life. Nope, I didn’t mean anything by it. Your edit is appreciated. Any executioners out there offended by the phrase “gallows humor”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/86 "2005-07-14T17:22:51Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > **faithfool** -I’m honestly very sad that you feel like that. You seem like a nice person. Thank you, and the feeling is mutual. It does come and go though (despite the basic sentiments pertaining to universal bad child treatment staying the same) and I’m largely used to the down times. Right now, all is better in my world. 🙂 I just didn’t want the perception out there that I was championing something I didn’t personally feel to be true. And that sometimes, one’s assumptions about others is incorrect. Now I apologize for continuing keeping the train off the track. Please resume discussion of the real matter at hand that I was, sorta kinda, trying to link my point to. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/87 "2005-07-14T17:30:09Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Yeah, and you’re either a dick or mostly a dick. I get it. Way to miss the point, jackass. You miss it. You bring up your ancestry an awful lot for some reason. Marc ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/88 "2005-07-14T17:33:34Z")
> [@Seeker74](#): > > This is FAR to lenient. That was the sentence for the mom. How does fifteen years stack up for someone who witnessed it and didn’t do anything, but did not actively kill the child? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/89 "2005-07-14T17:40:41Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Where the fuck were you and Otto calling for the death penalty in any of the other numerous cases lately of kids being killed? (And raped along the way) I don’t call for the death penalty in any circumstance, twit. Way to put words in my mouth. (Nor, I feel obliged to point out, do I view with relish the possibility of someone’s being raped in prison.) And you are all being ludicrous. Nobody is saying that killing a kid is acceptable or less appalling provided it’s not because he thinks the kid is gay. Nobody is saying that child-killing would end if homophobia didn’t exist. Where on earth are you getting this? (Probably from the same place that **duffer** got the idea I’m in favour of the death penalty.) It’s the reverse; I’m saying that _this individual case_ throws homophobia and gender fascism into relief because it shows that someone was willing to _do something as horrible as kill his kid_ over it. Did you even read the article in the OP? Didn’t you read that this was what he killed his kid over? Jesus Christ – look, a number of months ago I posted a thread about a father who encouraged his teenage son’s school friends to beat him up because he had found gay porn in his son’s stuff. Everyone agreed that this was horrible and said something disturbing about homophobia ; nobody accused me of going off on my “pet cause” \* or exploiting the kid’s injuries, or any of this bullshit. What’s different about this case? The fact that the kid’s 3? - And even if it were true that my activism was entirely centred around sexual orientation and gender identity, why would this somehow cheapen my argument? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/90 "2005-07-14T17:40:55Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > How does fifteen years stack up for someone who witnessed it and didn’t do anything, but did not actively kill the child? Could you imagine being beaten to the point of physical injury and eventually death as a child while your mother–ostensibly your provider, nurturer, protector, and sole source of security–looked on? I’m against prison-as-punishment, but if anything I think their sentences should be equal. ---
**Author:** ![Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/779978/32.png) [@Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amazon_Floozy_Goddess)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/91 "2005-07-14T18:24:13Z")
I’d like to know who the hell it was who thought it was ok to return the boy to his parents. From what the article said about that child’s medical history, you’d think CPS/doctors/whoever would _thoroughly_ examine him - take x-rays, brain scans, what have you - to find out what exactly what other damage had been done to this kid. Sure, toddlers tend to bump themselves and fall, but how could someone _not_ see the signs that he was obviously being abused by someone?? Or maybe they did, and just didn’t care? ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/92 "2005-07-14T18:24:54Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > It’s the reverse; I’m saying that _this individual case_ throws homophobia and gender fascism into relief because it shows that someone was willing to _do something as horrible as kill his kid_ over it. This most recent quote I can agree with: it sheds light on a problem. Your first attempt > [@](#): > > As for this foul specimen, what more proof do you need that homophobia and gender fascism are an endemic cancer in our society, and go hand in hand? I do not agree with. One individual does not a pattern make. Call it the straw which broke the camel’s back, if you will, and I shall again agree. I’m very wary about adding additional penalties to this crime because the perpetrator _thought_ his child _might_ be gay. I’m not entirely positive where that road will ultimately lead us. What about one white man who kills another white man because he _thought_ that white man had (insert race here) ancestry in his history? Similar situation, yes or no? Or a white man who kills his white wife because he _thought_ she was sleeping with a (insert race and/or sexual preference here)? Consider a white man who killed another white man because he just had an unrelated but anger-inducing encounter with (insert race here) and was taking out his frustrations because of it? He didn’t _mean_ to kill anybody white, but he was _thinking_ about killing the (insert race here)s that he met previously. Undoubtedly in these cases, fanatical xenophobia was the predominant issue, and the ultimate cause for the crime, but should that alone make the crime worth 10 extra lashes? Where do hate crimes stop and thought crimes begin? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/93 "2005-07-14T18:27:08Z")
> [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > Sure, toddlers tend to bump themselves and fall, but how could someone _not_ see the signs that he was obviously being abused by someone?? [They’re in Florida](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6365294&postcount=20). ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/94 "2005-07-14T18:35:21Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Is there some reason why you’re so invested in discounting the role that the attitudes toward homosexuality that this person absorbed from society played in the death? Meh. This ornament to parenthood couldn’t absorb the overwhelming message that society sends that you don’t beat your toddler son to death, and yet he managed to absorb the message that fags ought to be beaten out of it at an early age? And I’m “invested” in something because my outrage meter is already up against the stop because the sick fuck killed a small child, and doesn’t have any more travel just because homophobia was a factor? Listen, I cry out on all child murder. You can yell “If it weren’t for homophobia, this child would not have died” (personally I think the evil scuzzbucket would likely have found some other excuse) if you like, but personally, if 99% of toddler-murder is _not_ homophobia-related (a plausible statistic, but entirely _ex ano_, I admit), then I’ll scream at whatever _common_ factor is behind _all_ such murders. > [@Otto](#): > > And yet you’ve concerned yourself with it so greatly that you’ve dredged up something completely and utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand in an attempt to deflect the discussion away from your need to discount the role of homophobia in this death. All I dredged up was an illustration of why I likely visit Planet Otto rarely enough to worry about what the good citizens thereof think of me. C’mon. Call me a homophobic bigot myself. You know you want to. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/95 "2005-07-14T18:39:28Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > This most recent quote I can agree with: it sheds light on a problem. Your first attempt > > I do not agree with. One individual does not a pattern make. Call it the straw which broke the camel’s back, if you will, and I shall again agree. > > I’m very wary about adding additional penalties to this crime because the perpetrator _thought_ his child _might_ be gay. I’m not entirely positive where that road will ultimately lead us. > > What about one white man who kills another white man because he _thought_ that white man had (insert race here) ancestry in his history? Similar situation, yes or no? Or a white man who kills his white wife because he _thought_ she was sleeping with a (insert race and/or sexual preference here)? Consider a white man who killed another white man because he just had an unrelated but anger-inducing encounter with (insert race here) and was taking out his frustrations because of it? He didn’t _mean_ to kill anybody white, but he was _thinking_ about killing the (insert race here)s that he met previously. Undoubtedly in these cases, fanatical xenophobia was the predominant issue, and the ultimate cause for the crime, but should that alone make the crime worth 10 extra lashes? > > Where do hate crimes stop and thought crimes begin? All those examples would be hate crimes. The actual status of the victim doesn’t matter. What matters is the motivation of the perpetrator. If a crime is motivated by bigotry, it’s a hate crime. It doesn’t matter if they make a mistake. Having said that, I think it should be life without parole either way. I do think hate motivations can come into play as aggravating factors for lesser crimes, For instance, one can argue that spray painting a swastika on a synagogoue is worse than spray painting a smiley face on a synagogue, but when it comes to child murder, the distinction goes out the window. Throw away the key. The homophobic nature of this murder is more significant in what it says about our culture than how it should affect the punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/96 "2005-07-14T18:42:29Z")
I don’t see why some of you are being hard on Matt\_mcl. He stated what he saw as a significant contributing factor to the death of that child and that it should serve as warning to us all. Whether you agree or disagree I don’t believe Matt was pimping his pet cause at the expense of a dead baby. Give him a little more credit folks. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/97 "2005-07-14T18:55:04Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > This ornament to parenthood couldn’t absorb the overwhelming message that society sends that you don’t beat your toddler son to death, and yet he managed to absorb the message that fags ought to be beaten out of it at an early age? Well, yes, obviously he _did_ absorb the homophobia that is prevalent in American society. How do I know this? Because he beat a human being to death because of his aversion to homosexuality. > [@Malacandra](#): > > And I’m “invested” in something because my outrage meter is already up against the stop because the sick fuck killed a small child, and doesn’t have any more travel just because homophobia was a factor? You certainly seem like you’re invested in discounting the homophobia at the root of this murder, because pretty much your every utterance in this thread has been about discounting it. You started off by not only agreeing with **duffer** ’s dismissal of our concerns about the role institutionalized homophobia played in this death, you attacked **matt** for getting on his “soapbox” about it. > [@Malacandra](#): > > Listen, I cry out on all child murder. You can yell “If it weren’t for homophobia, this child would not have died” (personally I think the evil scuzzbucket would likely have found some other excuse) if you like, but personally, if 99% of toddler-murder is _not_ homophobia-related (a plausible statistic, but entirely _ex ano_, I admit), then I’ll scream at whatever _common_ factor is behind _all_ such murders. As will I, and I will also decry those factors which are specific to an individual case. Is your heart so small, or your “outrage meter” set so low, that you can’t be pissed not only at the general sick-fuckiness and the specific homophobia? > [@Malacandra](#): > > C’mon. Call me a homophobic bigot myself. You know you want to. I have no idea whether you’re a homophobic bigot. All I can tell from your posts to this thread is that you’re a small-hearted asshole. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/98 "2005-07-14T18:59:10Z")
> [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > From what the article said about that child’s medical history, you’d think CPS/doctors/whoever would _thoroughly_ examine him - take x-rays, brain scans, what have you - to find out what exactly what other damage had been done to this kid. Sure, toddlers tend to bump themselves and fall, but how could someone _not_ see the signs that he was obviously being abused by someone?? Or maybe they did, and just didn’t care? What about the extreme opposite? I have had friends whose children are taken to the ER after a fall/etc and the parents are immediately suspect. The child is seperated and questioned…“Did Mommy hurt you?”. I took my 10 year old son on a cruise to Alaska recently. Immigration officials seperated us and asked him if his mom knew where he was. They also asked why she wasn’t travelling with us. I was relieved that my son didn’t offer up any wise ass replies. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/99 "2005-07-14T19:10:09Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > This ornament to parenthood couldn’t absorb the overwhelming message that society sends that you don’t beat your toddler son to death, and yet he managed to absorb the message that fags ought to be beaten out of it at an early age? Um, this is bizarre. You might as well say that hate crime in general is impossible, because one could not possibly learn that certain groups are worthy of hatred without also learning that we do not assault others. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/100 "2005-07-14T19:11:18Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > I don’t see why some of you are being hard on Matt\_mcl. He stated what he saw as a significant contributing factor to the death of that child and that it should serve as warning to us all. Whether you agree or disagree I don’t believe Matt was pimping his pet cause at the expense of a dead baby. Give him a little more credit folks. Thanks, **MGibson**. I appreciate it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486.md?page=6)