# Father kills "gay" toddler **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2005, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486 "2005-07-14T08:51:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/101 "2005-07-14T19:19:56Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > You miss it. You bring up your ancestry an awful lot for some reason. > > Marc It was sarcasm. “I am waiting for my little subsect of the population to be affected before I change my views on a large social problem.” The “indian” part was simply convenient for **Lib** to use for illustration in this particular case\*. This guy is a homophobe AND a complete knuckle-dragging moron. Just how butch tough does he expect 3 year old to be? This guy should be incarcerated till he shuffles loose this mortal coil. Also, I agree we should dispense with the hopes for “prison justice”. [sub]\* I hope I got that right. That’s how I read it, anyway[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/102 "2005-07-14T19:20:30Z")
> [@Queen Tonya](#): > > Then why do we make any legal distinction between manslaughter and murder? Run someone over with your car accidentally or lay in wait on a rooftop with a scope, dead is still dead, but the whys and hows _do_ matter, they always have. Yes, because running someone over with your car and sniping them from a rooftop are the exact same thing. Do you posses any reading comprehension at all, or is it all just random words to you? > [@Otto](#): > > First, fuck your “special treatment” bullshit rhetoric. Second, it strikes me that it’s not the people who expect to be treated decently in spite of differences who are fragmenting society. Seems to me it’s the people who insist on treating the “subsets” differently (by, say, beating suspected members of the subset to death) who are causing the fragmentation. Hey, fuck you right back atcha Otto, I’m glad no poster with a track record of rationality cursed at me, I might have been upset. If you take your head out of your ass (undoubtedly knocked there by your jerking knee) you’ll notice that I wasn’t condemning people who “expect to be treated decently in spite of differences”, I’m all for that and always have been, a fact that is reflected clearly in my posting history. Nope, what I’m saying is that if you think that a crime against you should be punished more severely than the exact same crime against someone who is not a member of your group, than you want special status. Tell me, suppose John Kerry beats Mr. Moto to death with a crowbar because he voted for Bush, then George Bush beats you to death with a crowbar because you’re gay, David Duke beats Urban Chic to death with a crowbar because she’s black and female (a twofer!) and finally Howard Dean beats some random stranger to death with a crowbar for no reason whatsoever (YEEEEAHHHH!). Should the punishment for all four crimes be the same? If not, then why should some people be punished more severely than others for the exact same crime? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/103 "2005-07-14T19:32:39Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > I have no idea whether you’re a homophobic bigot. All I can tell from your posts to this thread is that you’re a small-hearted asshole. Perhaps **Malacandra** should spend Christmas in Whoville. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/104 "2005-07-14T19:45:52Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Tell me, suppose John Kerry beats Mr. Moto to death with a crowbar because he voted for Bush, then George Bush beats you to death with a crowbar because you’re gay, David Duke beats Urban Chic to death with a crowbar because she’s black and female (a twofer!) and finally Howard Dean beats some random stranger to death with a crowbar for no reason whatsoever (YEEEEAHHHH!). Should the punishment for all four crimes be the same? If not, then why should some people be punished more severely than others for the exact same crime? I would hope that, in theory and in practice, if Carson Kresley were to beat in the head of Britney Spears with a brass Ikea hanger rod while shrieking, “Die, breeder! Die!”, that he would receive the exact same hate-crime punishment as a gay-basher would under such a law. Is this expressing a wish for special treatment? ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/105 "2005-07-14T20:05:33Z")
Hey, everybody! Regardless of our personal gripes with each other and accusations of one-trick-ponyery, can we agree on the following? That 1. Beating a child to death, and 2. Being so angered that a child exhibits stereotypically “gay” behaviours that you respond by beating him to death, … are horrible and disgusting? How 'bout that? Good, 'cause I thought that was the point. _Sheee_-esh. Now, should we start another thread about whether motivation should correlate with punishment, or do we want to wrangle over that here because of **Otto** ’s angry line in the OP? And granted, the parent was probably inclined to violence anyway, but to suggest that killing a child while trying to beat the gay out of him isn’t at all related to attitudes on homosexuality is a real leap, IMO. It would seem to be just about as good a demonstration as there can be that at least _some_ people are very, very, disapproving of it. I’d personally guess this to be a horrifying collision of the attitude that smacking a toddler around will make him listen and the attitude that shock therapy can turn a kid hetero. Oh, and the attitude that [whatever behaviour that toddler exhibited] == [kid is gay]. But I’m probably just shouting from my soapbox again. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/106 "2005-07-14T20:07:00Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I would hope that, in theory and in practice, if Carson Kresley were to beat in the head of Britney Spears with a brass Ikea hanger rod while shrieking, “Die, breeder! Die!”, that he would receive the exact same hate-crime punishment as a gay-basher would under such a law. Is this expressing a wish for special treatment? Well, yes, it is. I think the point is that someone who beats a child to death because he believes the child has been fathered by someone else, or because he is a sadist, or for some other reason, should receive exactly the same condemnation and exactly the same punishment as someone who beat a child to death to inculcate a heterosexual orientation. Morally relevent distinctions can be drawn on intent - did you mean to kill the child, or did you mean to beat him but got carried away, etc. But I don’t see the morally relevent distinction between beating a child to death because you were worried he would grow up to be gay, and beating a child to death because he wet the bed or something. If we are agreeing that **anyone** who beats a child to death should receive the ultimate punishment, then we will only disagree on what the ultimate punishment should be - whether death, life in prison and frequent rape, life in prison without frequent rape, ow whatever. If, as seems to have been advocated (I grant you, rhetorically) that homophobic murderers should be punished more or worse than “regular” murderers, yes, that is a call for special treatment for the victims of homophobic murder. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/107 "2005-07-14T20:08:20Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Yes, because running someone over with your car and sniping them from a rooftop are the exact same thing. Do you posses any reading comprehension at all, or is it all just random words to you? Hey, you’re the one who said motivation for killing someone doesn’t matter. Don’t jump all over someone else for pointing out the shortcomings of your own argument. > [@](#): > > Nope, what I’m saying is that if you think that a crime against you should be punished more severely than the exact same crime against someone who is not a member of your group, than you want special status. Tell me, suppose John Kerry beats Mr. Moto to death with a crowbar because he voted for Bush, then George Bush beats you to death with a crowbar because you’re gay, David Duke beats Urban Chic to death with a crowbar because she’s black and female (a twofer!) and finally Howard Dean beats some random stranger to death with a crowbar for no reason whatsoever (YEEEEAHHHH!). Should the punishment for all four crimes be the same? If not, then why should some people be punished more severely than others for the exact same crime? Sure, the same crime should be punished the same way. The crimes you listed aren’t all identical, though, because they’ve all got different motives. If David Duke beats **UrbanChic** to death with a crowbar for being black, he should get the same punishment **UrbanChic** should get for beating David Duke to death because he’s white. If Howard Dean beats some random schmoe to death with a crowbar because he’s totally fucking insane, he should not get the same punishment as John Kerry for beating **Mr. Moto** to death for being a Republican, nor should I get the same punishment for beating you to death with a crowbar because I lost my glasses and mistook your head for a packing crate. Motive matters in determining severity of punishment. This is hardly a new development in criminal law. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/108 "2005-07-14T20:11:46Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I would hope that, in theory and in practice, if Carson Kresley were to beat in the head of Britney Spears with a brass Ikea hanger rod while shrieking, “Die, breeder! Die!”, that he would receive the exact same hate-crime punishment as a gay-basher would under such a law. Is this expressing a wish for special treatment? Do you think that that punishment should be the same as the punishment given to Joe Sixpack who beats in the head of Bob Homeowner with a shovel because Joe doen’t like Bob’s car? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/109 "2005-07-14T20:18:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Hey, you’re the one who said motivation for killing someone doesn’t matter. Don’t jump all over someone else for pointing out the shortcomings of your own argument. What shortcomings? Are you saying that accidentally running over someone is your car is the same act as sniping someone from a building? If so, then I’ll have to conclude that you are either A: an idiot or B: A. If not then tell me what I’m not understanding about your argument. > [@Miller](#): > > Sure, the same crime should be punished the same way. The crimes you listed aren’t all identical, though, because they’ve all got different motives. If David Duke beats **UrbanChic** to death with a crowbar for being black, he should get the same punishment **UrbanChic** should get for beating David Duke to death because he’s white. If Howard Dean beats some random schmoe to death with a crowbar because he’s totally fucking insane, he should not get the same punishment as John Kerry for beating **Mr. Moto** to death for being a Republican, nor should I get the same punishment for beating you to death with a crowbar because I lost my glasses and mistook your head for a packing crate. Motive matters in determining severity of punishment. This is hardly a new development in criminal law. So you clearly think certain groups do deserve special treatment. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/110 "2005-07-14T20:30:06Z")
Which groups am I advocating get special treatment? Be specific, now. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/111 "2005-07-14T20:32:38Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Thanks, **MGibson**. I appreciate it. We certainly don’t see eye to eye on a lot of issues but you’re basically an ok guy. Since this is the Pit and not a love in I’ll add some swearing. Crap. There, that should satisfy the rules. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/112 "2005-07-14T20:33:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Which groups am I advocating get special treatment? Be specific, now. Thats what I want to know, and why? 4 people got their heads bashed in by crowbars, yet you think all 4 perps should be treated differently. What I want to know is why? I think they should all get the same punishment. Why do you think differently? ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/113 "2005-07-14T20:42:34Z")
That poor little boy shouldn’t have been anywhere near his shitbag parents. I have my own hope for the dad’s punishment: may his conscience be awakened and his sense of empathy developed. While I won’t deny the appeal of the thought of someone beating the shit out of the dad and asking him how well he likes it, living with the horror of having killed an innocent toddler for what was in all likelihood normal toddler behavior would be much worse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/114 "2005-07-14T20:42:54Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > “Pathologically hostile” is just as meaningless, especially if you consider a lack of support for same-sex-marriage to be pathologically hostile. It may not be “pathological”, but it’s a hell of a lot worse than just opposition to same-sex marriage. Gays are laughed at on TV; the macho man just shudders if his buddies think he’s a queer. Guys still go out on Friday night with the sole intention of beatin’ up some homos. Our own fucking government wants to make sure gays are forever marginalized in our society. It’s not just a passing opposition to marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/115 "2005-07-14T20:46:29Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > It was sarcasm. “I am waiting for my little subsect of the population to be affected before I change my views on a large social problem.” The “indian” part was simply convenient for **Lib** to use for illustration in this particular case\*. […snip…] [sub]\* I hope I got that right. That’s how I read it, anyway[/sub] You read it right, of course. But so did he, I suspect. His why-must-you-flaunt-your-heritage schtick is analogous to white-collar suburban homophobia. I suppose it’s okay to be a greasy little Tonto so long as I stay downwind from him. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/116 "2005-07-14T20:49:08Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > I wonder if this scum would have killed his kid if he didn’t appear to be Gay? Most likely, based on the other facts you can glean from the article. He would’ve found some other “justification” for his child abuse. That’s the point that keeps getting lost in everybody’s attempts to politicize it and decry homophobia and “gender facism” and call each other idiots. Par for the course for this fucking message board. ---
**Author:** ![rainwalker78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rainwalker78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rainwalker78)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/117 "2005-07-14T20:57:58Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > Hey, everybody! Regardless of our personal gripes with each other and accusations of one-trick-ponyery, can we agree on the following? That > > 1. Beating a child to death, and > > 2. Being so angered that a child exhibits stereotypically “gay” behaviours that you respond by beating him to death, > > … are horrible and disgusting? How 'bout that? Good, 'cause I thought that was the point. _Sheee_-esh. > Now, should we start another thread about whether motivation should correlate with punishment, or do we want to wrangle over that here because of **Otto** ’s angry line in the OP? > And granted, the parent was probably inclined to violence anyway, but to suggest that killing a child while trying to beat the gay out of him isn’t at all related to attitudes on homosexuality is a real leap, IMO. It would seem to be just about as good a demonstration as there can be that at least _some_ people are very, very, disapproving of it. I’d personally guess this to be a horrifying collision of the attitude that smacking a toddler around will make him listen and the attitude that shock therapy can turn a kid hetero. Oh, and the attitude that [whatever behaviour that toddler exhibited] == [kid is gay]. > But I’m probably just shouting from my soapbox again. :rolleyes: Wow, the voice of reason is totally ignored. I am with you, wolfstu. Everyone seems to agree that this guy is a total bag of crap. It looks to me like everyone was pissed of about this, and starting jumping on each other. I mean, get real. This guy MURDERED a toddler. All this bickering is below us. In my humble opinion, we should all have put in our agreement that this guy is a dirtbag, and taken our CIVILISED debate on homophobia to Great Debates. On topic: I can’t even begin to say in words how much this disgusts me. Makes me want to cry. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/118 "2005-07-14T20:58:16Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Um, this is bizarre. You might as well say that hate crime in general is impossible, because one could not possibly learn that certain groups are worthy of hatred without also learning that we do not assault others. Not quite, **matt\_mcl** , though I see what you’re saying and it’s a reasonable discussion point. I think you’ve generalised my point too far. Antipathy to folks who aren’t like us is an understandable hangover from our evolutionary heritage, though that’s not to excuse it. But to be antipathetic to one’s own offspring, to the point of killing 'em … that’s another kettle of fish. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/119 "2005-07-14T21:05:02Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Most likely, based on the other facts you can glean from the article. He would’ve found some other “justification” for his child abuse. That’s the point that keeps getting lost in everybody’s attempts to politicize it and decry homophobia and “gender facism” and call each other idiots. Par for the course for this fucking message board. Fuckin’ Uncle Tom. :rolleyes: 😉 Look, I’ll extend the hand of friendship here. I saw **Otto** and **matt\_mcl** making what looked like a soapbox out of a horrible tragedy. It would not, however, have hurt me to keep my wug shut. We are, after all, agreed on the most important points here: - This was an abominable waste of an innocent young life. - The apology for a parent deserves whatever penalty the law will allow. We’ve had our say and plenty of it, and it would be as well to SFTU round about now. Can we agree to that? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/120 "2005-07-14T21:17:36Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You read it right, of course. But so did he, I suspect. His why-must-you-flaunt-your-heritage schtick is analogous to white-collar suburban homophobia. I suppose it’s okay to be a greasy little Tonto so long as I stay downwind from him. That’s exactly right. It’s nice to see that even a savage be saavy. Carry on kemosabe. :rolleyes: Marc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486.md?page=7)