# Father kills "gay" toddler **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2005, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486 "2005-07-14T08:51:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/161 "2005-07-16T00:51:14Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Didn’t we _all_ grow up in that world??? If it’s possible for two people to grow up in the same world, but disagree on social issues, it’s possible for us all to grow up in the same world, and feel differently about having a gay son. Not everybody gets the same signals, or buys into the BS in the same way. But a society that, by and large, encourages certain attitudes, is more likely to produce people with those attitudes than if it didn’t. And those people will hold the range of variability of those attitudes; in particular, if some of those people have violent tendencies, they may violently act on those attitudes. Inspection of my first post in the thread may reveal that I’m not absolving the moron in question of responsibility. Further to that, he almost certainly was a violent and abusive person to begin with. But it’s not, to me, unlikely at all to think that he tried to beat the gay out of his son because he didn’t want his son to be gay, and that he didn’t want his son to be gay because he thought ‘gay’ was a bad thing to be. Where did he get the idea that gay is bad? Maybe from the [bible-study](http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBV5C523BE.html) he attended, maybe from what his parents taught him, maybe from a prevailing attitude he absorbed from his peers and his mentors in life. Maybe even from a combination of such factors; he probably thaught gay is bad for the same reasons I once thought so. Or who knows, maybe he came to the conclusion independently, through careful reasoning and consideration of the facts. :dubious: Like racist attitudes in places and societies where racism persists, homophobic attitudes (and “My toddler isn’t acting like a boy should! I’ve got to do something before he turns nancy!” is a homophobic attitude) can be learned by immersion. Grow up among people who don’t welcome gay people, and you can easily come to think gay people shouldn’t be welcome. Until I met some reasonable gay people that weren’t actually sick dementios, I figured that’s what gay people were; that’s what the taunts on the playground, the silence from my parents, and the Catholic schooling taught me. I wouldn’t be surprised if the same is true for our little child-killer. He’s just more panicky and violent than me. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/162 "2005-07-16T01:00:38Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > We already do. We differentiate between murder one (premeditated), and murder two (spur of the moment, or just unplanned). We take into account of HOW the murder happened, how brutal it was. Again missing the distinction. HOW is not WHY. Intent is not motive. For all those who disagree with **Weirddave** , I thought of an example of a non-hate-crime use of motive in clasifying a crime: self-defense. Or is that still intent? I’m not entirely sure. But you might have better luck mounting an argument he won’t simply (and rightly, IMO) dismiss out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/163 "2005-07-16T02:39:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Hey, I’m cool as a cucumber. That’s not going to stop me from calling bullshit bullshit. And the above paragraph is bullshit. For someone who’s pretty hot about imputing motives on people who commit violent crime, you’re awful quick to assume motives for people on the other side of this debate. No, I’m not hot on imputing motives, you are. My point is that motives matter less. Yours is they matter more. Follow? I think the motive goes primarily to proving the crime, not dictating the punishment. As far as my suggesting you calm down, calm down. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by attributing your strong language to a slight rise in temper. I didn’t want to assume that you somehow thought your point was weak and felt the need to pepper it up a little. > [@](#): > > Do you think a man who murders his wife because she didn’t have dinner ready for him when got home, deserves to serve a longer jail sentence than a woman who murders her husband because he kept beating her for not having dinner ready when he got home? Do you think that someone who steals to buy food deserves teh same punishment as someone who steals to buy smack? No. I believe in Mercy. I think there is a baseline for a crime and because we are understanding and merciful, we can, if we choose, grant it to someone. But I don’t think you can take that baseline and pile on–for what someone might or might not have had in his head. If so, what do you do when someone commits a heinous act against another that merits the ultimate punishment? If he’s already going to the electric chair for the murder, you can’t kill him twice. > [@](#): > > Eh? What does physical harm have to do with it? It’s property damage and intimidation that are the crimes, here. By “intimidation” I assumed you meant that it was threatening. And the threat is that someone might be harmed physically. > [@](#): > > Are you kidding me? You are aware that if you blow up a bus with ten people on it, you’re going to get a harsher sentence than if you blow up a bus with only one person on it, aren’t you? Yes I am aware of that. And I’m pretty sure it’s because ten is a greater number of people to kill than ten. But this was your original statement: “Punishing crimes against multiple people harsher than crimes against one person is not some ground breaking new area in American law.” And I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. thinking, that you were making some interesting. nuanced point and not merely stating the obvious. > [@](#): > > Yes, there are laws to address that. They’re called hate crime laws. Piss-poor attempt to score and scamper. But if you’d like to end the debate, just say so. No hard feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/164 "2005-07-16T04:04:42Z")
Maybe I’ve missed it in this thread; however. how…exactly…is **intent** not **motive**? It seems to me that a motive is the reason for committing the crime, and that intent is the reason for committing the crime. At least, for crimes where intent/motive is present. Even if you say that the person’s intent is to inflict harm, then isn’t the reason for why he intends so part of that intent? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/165 "2005-07-16T04:13:28Z")
Intent is what you set out to do-“I intend to kill said person.” Motive is WHY you did it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/166 "2005-07-16T04:16:46Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Maybe I’ve missed it in this thread; however. how…exactly…is **intent** not **motive**? > > It seems to me that a motive is the reason for committing the crime, and that intent is the reason for committing the crime. At least, for crimes where intent/motive is present. Even if you say that the person’s intent is to inflict harm, then isn’t the reason for why he intends so part of that intent? I’m not a lawyer, but I think my Law & Order viewing may have finally paid off. Motive goes to why a particular crime may have been committed. For example: he slept with my wife, he owed me money, he was going to get the promotion I deserve, if I kill my wife I can collect the insurance money and pay off my gambling debts and run away with my mistress. Intent is just that, and goes to the degree to which a crime was accidental or intentional. If I see a guy on a bike and speed up in my car and head straight for him and kill him, I committted the crime with intent. Conversely, if I hit the brakes as hard as I can and skid as I hit the guy on his bike, yet still kill him, there is no intent. In fact, there may or may not be a crime. Hope that helps. And I hope a lawyer gets in here and corrects my mistakes, unintentional as they were. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/167 "2005-07-16T07:14:44Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > When did “intent” and “motive” become synonyms? > > Intent, which is the core of the “accidental crowbar” example, is used to classify the crime. ie, manslaughter vs murder. > > Motive is – as was pointed out – only used to aid in proving guilt. Motive was introduced into sentencing with the passage of the hate crime laws. Now, motive may also be used in determining the likelihood of repeat offenses, which is entirely logical, IMO, and may affect sentencing as well, but for different reasons. > > **Weirddave** (that dirty stinkin’ Ravens fan) was talking about motive, not intent. Anyone who played the manslaughter/murder card or accidental/intentional distinction in refuting his position completely missed the boat. He wasn’t talking about intent at all, and I believe that’s why he’s calling your arguments strawmen. > > So, when two people have their skulls bashed in by crowbars, one intentionally and one accidentally, those are _two completely different crimes_, because part of the definition of a crime is the intent of the criminal. **Not the motive**. Accept, of course, for hate crimes, which appear to be a special case. > > Apparently, some people aren’t too sold on hate crime legislation. I’m personally on the fence, as I was equally swayed (on that specifc issue) by both **Weirddave** and **Larry Mudd**. Do Jesus, Ellis, you’ve just stated my position with far more clarity than I have managed to so far. Since it’s coming from you, this dirty stinkin’ Ravens fan is abashed. :D. Seriously, thank you, you have put your finger on the core of the issue better than I have been able to do so far. Maybe we can stop talking past each other now. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/168 "2005-07-16T08:30:51Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > You don’t suppose that growing up in a world where it’s very common to believe and to voice the belief that gay is a bad thing to be and that having a gay child is an embarrassment had anything to do with the moron in question thinking these smackworthy things, do you? “Anything” is a pretty all-encompassing word. Who knows why morons do anything? If he’s moronic enough to beat a small child to death either maliciously or recklessly, he’s moronic enough to do it even if homophobia was uncommon. I acknowledge the part homophobia played in this tragedy. I don’t think a lessening of societal homophobia would all that likely have saved the kid’s life, or significantly reduce casualties among other little kids. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/169 "2005-07-16T08:59:00Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > That’s the thing that’s mind-boggling: the fact that he could kill a person because he was afraid that person was gay, when the person in question was fucking THREE. Well, you’ve certified me as a “twit”. Why you then quote me is a mystery. I’ve tried to make nice with you. Even though we are fundamentally different in some views/tacks, I’ve always seen us as a couple of guys that could enjoy an evening out on the town. I was wrong. Bowing out of the thread ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/170 "2005-07-16T22:16:40Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > If it’s possible for two people to grow up in the same world, but disagree on social issues, it’s possible for us all to grow up in the same world, and feel differently about having a gay son. Not everybody gets the same signals, or buys into the BS in the same way. But a society that, by and large, encourages certain attitudes, is more likely to produce people with those attitudes than if it didn’t. And those people will hold the range of variability of those attitudes; in particular, if some of those people have violent tendencies, they may violently act on those attitudes. > Inspection of my first post in the thread may reveal that I’m not absolving the moron in question of responsibility. Further to that, he almost certainly was a violent and abusive person to begin with. But it’s not, to me, unlikely at all to think that he tried to beat the gay out of his son because he didn’t want his son to be gay, and that he didn’t want his son to be gay because he thought ‘gay’ was a bad thing to be. Where did he get the idea that gay is bad? Maybe from the [bible-study](http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBV5C523BE.html) he attended, maybe from what his parents taught him, maybe from a prevailing attitude he absorbed from his peers and his mentors in life. Maybe even from a combination of such factors; he probably thaught gay is bad for the same reasons I once thought so. Or who knows, maybe he came to the conclusion independently, through careful reasoning and consideration of the facts. :dubious: > > Like racist attitudes in places and societies where racism persists, homophobic attitudes (and “My toddler isn’t acting like a boy should! I’ve got to do something before he turns nancy!” is a homophobic attitude) can be learned by immersion. Grow up among people who don’t welcome gay people, and you can easily come to think gay people shouldn’t be welcome. Until I met some reasonable gay people that weren’t actually sick dementios, I figured that’s what gay people were; that’s what the taunts on the playground, the silence from my parents, and the Catholic schooling taught me. I wouldn’t be surprised if the same is true for our little child-killer. He’s just more panicky and violent than me. No offense, but if this was a\* Law and Order\* episode, this sounds an awful lot like what the defense attorney would be saying to the jury. All that’s missing is the “Society made him what is” statement. [sub]rereads[/sub] Nope, that’s there too. ---
**Author:** ![TJdude825](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@TJdude825](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJdude825)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486/171 "2005-07-18T07:10:17Z")
Apologies if this has been posted already. It’s only a little bit creepy that the story in the OP came only about a month after this fake story from The Onion: > [@](#): > > [**New Dad Thinks Baby Might Be Gay**](http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4126&n=3) > > SCOTTSDALE, AZ—Citing “something vaguely effeminate” about his eight-month-old son Michael, first-time father Joe Oebrick, 32, reported Tuesday that he suspects the infant may be a homosexual. > > “I love my son,” Oebrick said. “But, you understand, I’m worried, too.” > > Among the many “small signs” that suggest that his son may be gay, Oebrick cited a home video in which the toddler crawls across the living-room carpet of the family’s suburban Scottsdale home, wiggling his hips from side to side. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-kills-gay-toddler/312486.md?page=8)