# Father M., That Was the Wrong Sermon **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2002, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790 "2002-07-07T16:44:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2002, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/1 "2002-07-07T16:44:19Z")
I went to church this morning, shaky and a bit depressed because of some rather unpleasant stuff which happened with my family this past week. Since we were short handed as usual, I was chalicist (the person who gives wine to people at communion). This means I could not walk out during the sermon. If I’d been anywhere else, including the choir, I probably would have. First, the 9th Circuit Court decision about the Pledge of Allegiance was the _right_ decision! I don’t want to recreate the Great Debates thread in here, but my priest reiterated some of the very points I’ve seen atheists on this Board kicking about. Our church is trying to get a movement started to get more people into the Episcopal church. Where are they supposed to come from? The Methodists?!! And how do you get people to be more favourably inclined towards Christianity if you kick them in the teeth like that?!! That left me angry. The second part of the sermon left me clinically depressed. He started talking about the freedoms America was founded on (after being in favor of infringing on one of them:(). He talked about the Pilgrims coming to America in search of freedom of religion, conveniently omitting that it wasn’t long before they denied religious freedom to one of there own, thus leading to the founding of Rhode Island. Then he went on to the Revolutionary War and the evils of the British. I was 2 1/2 when my family moved from England to America; I was 11 during America’s Bicentennial. I got beaten up because I was British and the school was teaching similar rhetoric. I decided history was bunk around that time because all I heard when we studied the Revolutionary War was how evil the British were and I knew we couldn’t be that bad. That half of the sermon brought it all back. Don’t get me wrong – I love America as deeply and passionately as anyone born on these shores, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for all she has accomplished. I am also a devout Christian and I cannot see anything changing it, but after the service was over, I wound up sitting in the sanctuary in tears feeling as alone and outcast as ever. I’ve been fighting depression for a few days now; this morning the storm broke. I did get a hug and some comfort from one of our more patriotic types, and it was badly needed; I also was able to talk to Father M. and let him know why I was so upset, but that did not make that sermon any easier. I don’t know, maybe I needed to break down in tears. I am, at any rate, feeling better than I was either before or immediately after the service, so it looks like I’ll be all right. So, **Polycarp** , in the Episcopal Church, what’s the penalty for Pitting my priest? CJ ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/2 "2002-07-07T17:31:25Z")
Well, all I know is the kind of Pits priests usually talk about are a lot worse than ours. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/3 "2002-07-07T17:31:59Z")
You’ve got an _Episcopalian_ pastor promoting the views of the brothers Mather and that brood of anti-Anglican bigots? You ought to try to write up a history-based counter argument to that sermon and get it placed in next week’s bulletin–along with a petition to prohibit that twit from ever mentioning politics or history from the pulpit again. I just love hearing about ignorance proclaimed as an ideal. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2002, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/4 "2002-07-07T18:06:29Z")
\*\* tomndebb\*\* It wasn’t that bad, just pretty much standard stuff I heard when I was a kid about the British oppressing the Americans at the time. Under normal circumstances, it wouldn’t have bothered me nearly as much. It’s just that, for example, he mentioned atrocities committed against the Founding Fathers by the British, not, of course, stating that Tories didn’t exactly have an easy time of it either. That would have ruined the tone of the sermon. For the record, I do count Father M. a friend, as well as a spiritual advisor, and probably everyone else in the congregation liked his sermon. It’s just unfortunate that the former British kid got kicked. CJ ---
**Author:** ![agentfroot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/779978/32.png) [@agentfroot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agentfroot)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2002, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/5 "2002-07-07T23:13:46Z")
Well, I gave you my tuppence in an earlier email, but know I know your side of the story so things make sense a bit more. Isn’t it convenient that the sermon gutted you while you were trying to heal from Thursday’s “flesh wound?” Jeesh. And in church, the one place where you feel truly accepted. Anyway, I’m trying to figure out how to explain things to my poor sister, who inhaled too much of the secondhand smoke pouring out of your ears (I don’t think she’ll be sitting next to you any more.). She doesn’t really understand you or know about your past, so perhaps I’ll just say you were having a bad week and that was the final thrust to the chest (Ok, why am I speaking in fencing terms?). Well, she thinks all my friends are crazy and scary, so don’t worry too much. Back to the subject, I think Father M. needs to take a sensitivity training course. We aren’t the only people his sermons have offended. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2002, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/6 "2002-07-07T23:51:15Z")
> [@](#): > > First, the 9th Circuit Court decision about the Pledge of Allegiance was the _right_ decision! … And how do you get people to be more favourably inclined towards Christianity if you kick them in the teeth like that?!! What you’ve described wasn’t a “kick in the teeth.” Which is not to say he didn’t say horrible terrible things about Christians or something, but you didn’t make that clear. > [@](#): > > He started talking about the freedoms America was founded on (after being in favor of infringing on one of them:(). Which one? All in all, I never trust anybody who claims to know what god thinks on current matters. It’s hard enough to tell his opinion on previous issues is… ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/7 "2002-07-08T00:59:39Z")
\*\*Myrr21[/b, what he was saying about the Pledge of Allegiance was a lot of the same stuff people have been saying since the decision was announced: basically, this is a Christian nation founded by people fleeing religious persecution and there is no reason anyone should object to the phrase “under God.” In my experience, being told you have no right to be offended by something which is in fact offending you can be painful and a bit demeaning. As to the freedom which is being infringed upon, it’s the one Christians are usually vocally in favour of – freedom of religion. In my book, that includes freedom to be an atheist if you choose. As a Christian, would I be happier if atheists converted to Christianity? Sure. On the other hand, they’re not going to do it by mouthing meaningless words they don’t believe, and I’d have a lot less respect for them if they did. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/8 "2002-07-08T01:01:02Z")
Please excuse the coding – it’s been one of those days! ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/9 "2002-07-08T03:05:59Z")
I’m glad I wasn’t the only one offended by a sermon today. The Presbyterian church that I attend with my grandparents has this “children’s church” thing where the pastor calls up all of the children to the altar during the service and teaches them a lesson. Today he gave each child an oversized dollar bill and showed them where it says “In God We Trust.” He told them that this is proof that Americans believe in God, and that they should keep these dollars to remind them how America is a Christian country. Well, I don’t happen to believe in God. I go to church for my children’s sake and to spend time with my grandparents. I also don’t happen to believe that “In God We Trust” should be on dollar bills. So thanks, padre, for indoctrinating my children into a political belief that I feel is wrong and for making me feel like less of an American. You know, even though I don’t actually believe in God, I usually find church to be a pleasant and uplifting experience. Today, it just sucked. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/10 "2002-07-08T07:25:55Z")
> [@](#): > > standard stuff I heard when I was a kid about the British oppressing the Americans at the time Well, despite the fact that I’m generally glad the rebellion succeeded, a whole lot of the “oppression” stuff is/was propaganda. Note, however, that my specific objection was not to the boiler-plate, Parson Weems version of the War for Independence but the rather historically stupid applause for the religious bigots of the Bay Colony (who were more than a little hostile to the Church of England) by a presumably educated Episcopalian. (It would be rather like a Catholic admiring the deep spirituality of Ian Paisely or Oral Roberts.) * * * > [@](#): > > Today he gave each child an oversized dollar bill and showed them where it says “In God We Trust.” > [@](#): > > Mark 12 > 14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? > 15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it. > 16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar’s. > 17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him. So. Is money now God’s? (Sounds like a scam to raise tithes.) ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/11 "2002-07-08T07:48:25Z")
And here I misread the thread for a moment as: Father M., That Was the Wrong Semen ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/12 "2002-07-08T07:59:02Z")
While I have yet to hear a sermon that is primarily political (for which I am grateful), I am starting to get somewhat irritated with the recent rhetoric coming from the pulpit about “praying for our president” and “praying that the right leaders might be elected.” Thanks, pastor, for making me feel like I might be perpetuating evil by voting for the wrong leaders. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/13 "2002-07-08T09:52:35Z")
“We should have as high a regard for religion so as to keep it out of as many things as possible” ~Fluther Good, The Shadow of a Gunman. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/14 "2002-07-08T13:22:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cessandra \* > Today [the pastor] gave each child an oversized dollar bill and showed them where it says “In God We Trust.” He told them that this is proof that Americans believe in God, and that they should keep these dollars to remind them how America is a Christian country. Which illustrates in a nutshell the problem with so-called “ceremonial deism”. The reality is that even the most apparently innocuous religious phraseology carries a fair amount of meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/15 "2002-07-08T20:38:59Z")
I need to applaud **RT**'s post, and ask **Cessandra** if I may quote her experience on another board in refutation of the “Oh, ‘Under God’ doesn’t mean anything that people could get upset about” variety of opinion. **CJ** , have you ever noticed how priests either hit the nail directly on the head or go completely out into left field when they try to preach a “relevant” sermon? And I’m confident if his topic were the same and his perspectives reversed one of your co-parishioners would feel the same hurt that you do. Not to make you feel worse by bragging, but I have to tell you what our priest, Lorraine, had to say. Suggesting that there was no way she could avoid the topic since it had saturated the news all week, she avoided commenting in either direction on the decision, and instead directed our attentions to the closing words of Eucharistic Prayer B: > [@](#): > > In the fullness of time, put all things in subjection under your Christ, and bring us to that heavenly country where with [\_\_\_\_ and] all Your saints we may enter the everlasting heritage of Your Kingdom. Well, yeah. So how do we who believe that **the humble love of Christ** will eventually conquer all things (including the assholes who believe that they need to force people into it) intelligently discuss a court decision that finds an unconstitutional insertion of religion in a part of a pledge that has been an important part of people’s patriotic views for many years – and how, in particular, can we say this in a way that does not sound like we want **our** beliefs forced on them – as you know and I know we do not, but as that sentence from the Mass would certainly suggest that we do? Tough question. I left church thoughtful. ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2002, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/16 "2002-07-12T03:51:45Z")
Of course you can quote me, Polycarp. Whew, I rather thought someone would lay into me about this. I certainly don’t presume to tell the pastor how to preach, after all, I am a non-believer and not even a member of the church. But it did bother me quite a bit, and hurt my feelings. I am a VERY patriotic person (I get all choked up watching documentaries on American history), and it hurts to be told I am somehow less American because I can’t find a way to believe in God. I’ve had my feelings hurt over this issue by a lot of people that I care about lately (though they certainly didn’t mean to). ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2002, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-m-that-was-the-wrong-sermon/117790/17 "2002-07-12T09:38:41Z")
And that’s the precise reason I objected to the first half of the sermon. **Polycarp** , your words made me feel better, not worse. Also, I won’t go into this in the Pit, but I was in need of healing and a hug last Sunday and I got it, just not in the form I expected it in. CJ