# Father of 9/11 victim fights to have "Murdered by Muslim Terrorists" inscribed on son's memorial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414 "2009-11-05T12:27:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/21 "2009-11-05T14:20:35Z")
> [@glee](#): > > (If you go down this road, you can describe thousands of IRA victims as ‘killed by Christian terrorists, funded by American money’.) Another canard. The vast majority of IRA came from within the islands of Ireland and Britain. Bank raids, kidnapping and other illegal activities. It also got a lot of it’s explosives and arms from Libya. Some of the US money did go there but to imply it was heavily funded is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/22 "2009-11-05T14:21:58Z")
How about having the Holocaust memorials having plaques marked “murdered by Christians”? This father is a jerk. I’m sorry for his loss, but he wants to erect a monument for the purpose of perpetuating hatred. Congratulations to the city for having the sense to know bigotry when it sees it. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/23 "2009-11-05T14:29:31Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Republicanism and precieved oppression by a imperialist power led to their actions, it had nothing whatsoever to do with religion. A lot of IRA men where lefty atheists, in fact the few(Acquaintances/friends of my father) I know are all lefty non-believers. Catholic and Protestant are just handy pointers to which side the person most likely falls on really. > > The Loyalist groups were mostly acting as a reaction to Republican acts. Bollocks, Catholic identity was important in the support of IRA over the government. Nothing whatsover to do with religion is a statement utterly ignoring the fundamental divisions were driven by perceived injustices almost entirely tied to religious identity (even if one was not actually practising) that went back two centuries or more. Thus you got “old English” Catholics in Ireland on the side of Ireland. That other motives were there is certainly true, but same is true for Al Qaeda. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/24 "2009-11-05T14:30:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > How about having the Holocaust memorials having plaques marked “murdered by Christians”? This father is a jerk. I’m sorry for his loss, but he wants to erect a monument for the purpose of perpetuating hatred. Congratulations to the city for having the sense to know bigotry when it sees it. Or Murdered by Germans. Murdered by Nazi regime … fine, about the same as saying murdered by Al Qaeda or some other specific group. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/25 "2009-11-05T14:47:11Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Bollocks, Catholic identity was important in the support of IRA over the government. Nothing whatsover to do with religion is a statement utterly ignoring the fundamental divisions were driven by perceived injustices almost entirely tied to religious identity (even if one was not actually practising) that went back two centuries or more. Thus you got “old English” Catholics in Ireland on the side of Ireland. > > That other motives were there is certainly true, but same is true for Al Qaeda. It was important only as a matter of identification. The IRA were not fighting because of Catholic dogma. Britain didn’t take control of Ireland because of religion, they were here before Henry VIII. It happened that the community that was oppressed by the NI statelet where Catholic but they weren’t being oppressed because they were Catholic they were being oppressed because they weren’t the people in power who self identified as British. Religion is tied into all of this but it wasn’t the reason for anything. The troubles came about because of the battle of the bogside which again wasn’t a religious flareup but a local politics one. To say “but their Catholicism was what in large part led to their actions” is to fundamentally misunderstand the reasons why the modern IRA started their “struggle”. Anyway I don’t want to hijack this thread into one about the IRA or the reasons for all the bollocks that happened here. Sorry to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/26 "2009-11-05T14:53:36Z")
Murdered by Saudi Terrorists Murdered by Al Qaeda Terrorists or in the case of here Murdered by IRA/INLA/Republican etc Terrorists Murdered by Loyalist Terrorists All the above are more accurate descriptions. If the father is insistent that his nomenclature is the only way to go he is free to put up his own plaque on his own property. I can totally understand why the town would not want to paint with such a wide and easily misinterpreted term. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/27 "2009-11-05T15:02:07Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Yes, because (unlike Muslims) Christians represent a tiny fraction of the modern-day terrorists. Isn’t that all the more reason to put “Christian terrorist” on the plaque? Because it’s so unusual and therefore noteworthy? Anyway, I think it’s really tacky. Would you put, “Killed by black thug” on your stone? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/28 "2009-11-05T15:32:59Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > It was important only as a matter of identification. The IRA were not fighting because of Catholic dogma. Britain didn’t take control of Ireland because of religion, they were here before Henry VIII. It happened that the community that was oppressed by the NI statelet where Catholic but they weren’t being oppressed because they were Catholic they were being oppressed because they weren’t the people in power who self identified as British. > > Religion is tied into all of this but it wasn’t the reason for anything. The troubles came about because of the battle of the bogside which again wasn’t a religious flareup but a local politics one. > > To say “but their Catholicism was what in large part led to their actions” is to fundamentally misunderstand the reasons why the modern IRA started their “struggle”. > > Anyway I don’t want to hijack this thread into one about the IRA or the reasons for all the bollocks that happened here. > > Sorry to the OP. We’ll have to agree to disagree, but a common point to the OP is that as in the Troubles, much of the Al Qaeda agenda and motivations are driven not by religion as such, but by a reaction to perceived imperialism by the Americans. Religious identity happens to be a vehicle of response (probably because the Socialists so clearly failed). ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/29 "2009-11-05T17:00:51Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Isn’t that all the more reason to put “Christian terrorist” on the plaque? Because it’s so unusual and therefore noteworthy? > > Anyway, I think it’s really tacky. Would you put, “Killed by black thug” on your stone? Nah; it’s more likely to say, “Drowned by crazed Internet cat lovers.” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/30 "2009-11-06T00:20:03Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Yes, because (unlike Muslims) Christians represent a tiny fraction of the modern-day terrorists. Might you show us your stats on modern-day terrorist proportions? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/31 "2009-11-06T00:39:54Z")
The words of a memorial should be very carefully chosen. If you say “murdered by a terrorist”, you invoke the memory of the slain as a testimony against terrorism, to remind the better angels of our nature to guard against the hatred that poisons the soul and permits someone to think of the innocent as expendable. The addition of the word “Muslim” alters the whole structure, degrades it. It invites us not simply to oppose inhumanity, which is commendable, but to degrade a religion shared amongst and honored by millions of people. At best, this is a regrettable if understandable reaction born of pain and loss. At worst, it is bigotry, it promotes the very horror it seeks to condemn. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/32 "2009-11-06T00:47:37Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > “Fucked up by our military and intelligence agencies” would be a more apt inscription. Only if you know absolutely nothing about history, recent or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/33 "2009-11-06T00:53:38Z")
Mine’s going to say “Murdered by God”. Even if I’m murdered by colorectal cancer, I still blame God by extension. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/34 "2009-11-06T01:09:38Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Only if you know absolutely nothing about history, recent or otherwise. Ivan’s a Truther. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/35 "2009-11-06T01:28:21Z")
Gah, the degree to which apologists will pretend this has nothing to do with religion is just absurd. Al Qaeda is obviously motivated by religious ideology, it’s part of the foundation of their beliefs. This is obvious and hardly worthy of debate, except amongst people who want to bend over backwards in some over the top PC effort to pretend that it isn’t true. Obviously it is not equivelant when a guy who happens to coincidentally be considered Christian commits terrorism. If his religion was not the basis for his beliefs that led to terrorism, then it isn’t a causitive factor. The same is obviously not true for Al Qaeda. If an abortion clinic bomber was convinced that he was on a mission from God to save fetuses then that would be pretty much equivelant. Tim McVeigh is a ridiculous comparison. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/36 "2009-11-06T01:41:38Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Only if you know absolutely nothing about history, recent or otherwise. Are you telling me that your intelligence forces did not have chances of arresting several of the terrorists involved, which would likely have thrown their mission into disarray?? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/37 "2009-11-06T01:53:00Z")
Holocaust Memorial: Six million killed by a Christian madman. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/38 "2009-11-06T01:53:38Z")
It may be tacky or incorrect but it’s his son’s plaque (in a matter of speaking) so if he wants to put “murdered by lolcatz” it his choice to make and the authorities’ to weigh ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/39 "2009-11-06T01:57:07Z")
Personally, I think anything that leads to the persecution and annihilation of lolcatz is to be encouraged by all right-thinking persons. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414/40 "2009-11-06T02:00:09Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > It may be tacky or incorrect but it’s his son’s plaque (in a matter of speaking) so if he wants to put “murdered by lolcatz” it his choice to make and the authorities’ to weigh Don’t agree. Headstones aren’t meant to be a potted biography for anyone who’s passing. Anyone who knew this person would know how he died anyway, so who needs to see his father’s opinions - misguided as they are - emblazoned on a memorial stone? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-of-9-11-victim-fights-to-have-murdered-by-muslim-terrorists-inscribed-on-sons-memorial/516414.md?page=3)