# Father-son charged with rape, plan to use the bible as their defense **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 24, 2017, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013 "2017-01-24T05:27:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/1 "2017-01-24T05:27:46Z")
[From here:](http://www.modbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article128194164.html) > [@](#): > > A father and son accused of raping a teenage girl over a three-year period and keeping her shackled in a basement have made it clear that they don’t have faith in the law or in the people who practice it. > > When they face an Ohio jury as they defend themselves against criminal charges that carry long prison sentences, they will rely on one book: The Bible. > > Timothy Ciboro and his son, Esten Ciboro, both of Toledo, are each charged with multiple counts of rape. The trial is scheduled to start this week, months after the girl, who is Timothy Ciboro’s stepdaughter, managed to unshackle herself and escape while her alleged abusers were gone, authorities said. > > During a hearing Friday, the Ciboros made the unusual request of having access to the Bible, which they plan to cite as they defend themselves in front of a jury. The Bible, Esten Ciboro told a judge, is “the only law book that truly matters,” the Toledo Blade reported. As an atheist not familiar with the bible, I’m rather curious by this. What in blazes are they going to use as a defense for their actions? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/2 "2017-01-24T05:30:00Z")
They are as thick as it. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/3 "2017-01-24T05:41:57Z")
Guess they didn’t want to spill their seed on the ground? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/4 "2017-01-24T06:03:42Z")
Here is a pro-tip when dealing with rapists (or criminals generally). Don’t give to much credence or thought to what they say as justification. People usually don’t see themselves as bad and the human mind is great at making excuses which sound good to the person who needs them. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/5 "2017-01-24T14:01:11Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > [From here:](http://www.modbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article128194164.html) > > As an atheist not familiar with the bible, I’m rather curious by this. What in blazes are they going to use as a defense for their actions? Characteristic of the news media, no matter how far down the story you keep reading, its all nothing but fluff and padding, without ever explaining the connection that the headline promises. I hasten to add, sometimes the news story does explain itself, but no less than 12 paragraphs down. It’s called “paragraph clickbait”. Keep reading, see if you find anything illuminating down there. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/6 "2017-01-24T15:20:23Z")
I wonder if this is a situation where the rapists know they are getting the book thrown at them big time, so they are taking a long shot at hoping they get a loony member of the jury that will hear “oh they were following the bible, that must be ok” and vote not guilty based on that. They probably don’t understand that a hung jury just means the prosecution will try again, especially for a case like this. They probably do understand that it is incredibly unlikely that they’ll get one of the twelve members to sit through a case like this and decide to throw out all the actual evidence in favor of “god’s law is the only law that matters”, but when you’re facing whatever penalty they are facing a hail mary starts looking pretty good. That, or they’re just delusional. I give it 50/50 either way. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/7 "2017-01-24T15:29:18Z")
They may be planning on using one of the “When God says it’s OK to rape women” verses, like Deuteronomy 21: > [@The word of God](#): > > “When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. “She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. “It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not mistreat her, because you have humbled her. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/8 "2017-01-24T15:34:20Z")
The Bible does say a man is the held of the household. Lot offered his underage daughters for rape and was called “righteous.” So he was being righteous according to the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/9 "2017-01-24T16:08:45Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I hasten to add, sometimes the news story does explain itself, but no less than 12 paragraphs down. It’s called “paragraph clickbait”. That’s called a “delayed lead” in the industry (and a pretty old technique, probably going back to the beginnings of journalism itself.) The story seems written fine to me, but probably doesn’t need quite that much space devoted to it. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/10 "2017-01-24T17:21:00Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > The Bible does say a man is the held of the household. Lot offered his underage daughters for rape and was called “righteous.” So he was being righteous according to the Bible. This or what **muldoonthief** said is what I’m wondering. When he says, > [@](#): > > Timothy Ciboro said he and his son intend to “use God’s holy word to ask questions, questions that we believe are absolutely vital to our case,” the paper reported. I’m incredibly curious as to what he thinks he can pull from the bible that would save his ass. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/11 "2017-01-24T18:22:02Z")
Apparently, this kind of crime does not warrant the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/12 "2017-01-24T22:15:49Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > I’m incredibly curious as to what he thinks he can pull from the bible that would save his ass. Probably the same stuff that tells real patriots that gold fringe on an American flag in a courtroom means they don’t have to pay taxes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/13 "2017-01-26T02:36:34Z")
I gather their intent is not so much to prove that the Bible condones rape (although if they try they can certainly find passages that come uncomfortably close) as it is to simply reject secular law entirely and play into the already-packaged-for-wingnut-consumption notion that laws established by any authority other than one’s personal religious belief violate the First Amendment. Just trying to appeal to the “Discrimination and child abuse/neglect and tax evasion and any other crime is okay if you yell Jesus loud enough while you do it” crowd. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/14 "2017-01-26T03:15:00Z")
Annie X-Mas: > [@](#): > > Lot offered his underage daughters for rape and was called “righteous.” Where in the Bible is Lot called “righteous”? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/15 "2017-01-26T03:24:10Z")
Demonic possession could be their defense. As well as maybe hitting them with the book at then run out. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/16 "2017-01-26T06:51:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Demonic possession could be their defense. As well as maybe hitting them with the book at then run out. Heh. Personally I think this must be it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/17 "2017-01-26T10:05:48Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Annie X-Mas: > > Where in the Bible is Lot called “righteous”? Indirectly, when Abraham tries to bargain with God. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/18 "2017-01-26T13:24:38Z")
Nava: > [@](#): > > Indirectly, when Abraham tries to bargain with God. Just because Abraham might - MIGHT - be implying that Lot is one of the 50, then 45, then 40, then 30, then 20, then 10 hypothetical righteous people for whose sake Sodom, Gomorrah, etc might have been saved, does not mean that in the eyes of Biblical morality, he was considered righteous. Don’t forget that in the end, G-d does say that there are not even 10 righteous people in Sodom (et al), and the matter is left there - we do not know if the actual number is 0 or 9, and if greater than 0, if Lot is considered to be one of them. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/19 "2017-01-26T16:02:31Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > I gather their intent is not so much to prove that the Bible condones rape (although if they try they can certainly find passages that come uncomfortably close) as it is to simply reject secular law entirely… They don’t have a leg to stand on. [Quote=Romans 13:1-5] Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. [/quote] I don’t know what would be more disgusting: that these two are cynically playing a line of “defense” they know is counter to the explicit content of the Bible, or that they might sincerely believe their heresy. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013/20 "2017-01-26T17:08:33Z")
I was wondering about that. The Talmud essentially says that when Jews live outside Israel, the law of the land is the law, with very few exceptions (being forced to worship another deity, for example). This is why no Jew has ever tried to argue in favor of bigamy in the US because it happens in the Torah. I read the gospels, though it’s been a long time, I was pretty sure that Jesus had said something similar. Thanks Gnoitall. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/father-son-charged-with-rape-plan-to-use-the-bible-as-their-defense/778013.md?page=2)