# Fatherless daughter term? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 4, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527 "2011-03-04T22:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/21 "2011-03-11T02:47:15Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > Plus it’s a double insult. At the same time that you paint your target a social pariah with the label “bastard”, you’re also painting his mother with the label “dishonest” - she either got pregnant out of wedlock, or cheated on her husband (in which case, you’re also calling his father a cuckold too _en passant_). All traditionally very negative concepts. If the child was born to a married woman, it’s not a bastard, even if mom cheated on her husband. At law, her husband is the father of the child. ---
**Author:** ![ArhV5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@ArhV5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArhV5)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/22 "2011-07-02T16:53:59Z")
> [@j66](#): > > But that usage is \*\*not \*\*obviously an insult **irrespective of birth** ; ‘bastard’ is not used to mean nothing more specific than ‘dick-head’ or ‘jerk’. > > I will call a man a bastard as an insult when he is being a cruel or selfish jerk, but not a woman. > [@](#): > > Well, then, > **Legitimate Edgar** , I must have your land: > Our father’s love is to the **bastard Edmund** > As to the **legitimate** : fine word,– **legitimate**! > Well, my **legitimate** , if this letter speed, > And my invention thrive, Edmund the base > Shall top the **legitimate**. I grow; I prosper: > Now, gods, stand up for **bastards**! Personally, I’m just a little confused. Does he not imply illegitimacy here… he seems to mention it a lot. I haven’t ever studied the play, so I could not pretend I know the context or what he is referring to, but I definitely feel like one would be dead wrong to assume that the use of bastard here is simply an insult for cruelty or selfishness. In fact, I just checked SparkNotes (its simple and reliable) to find out more about this play, and Edmund is an illegitimate child. > [@](#): > > Edmund - Gloucester’s younger, illegitimate son. So unfortunately, I don’t think you could be any more wrong on this topic, which is kind of hilarious considering the entire text was presented earlier… ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/23 "2011-07-02T19:03:12Z")
> [@ArhV5](#): > > Personally, I’m just a little confused. Does he not imply illegitimacy here… he seems to mention it a lot. I haven’t ever studied the play, so I could not pretend I know the context or what he is referring to, but I definitely feel like one would be dead wrong to assume that the use of bastard here is simply an insult for cruelty or selfishness. In fact, I just checked SparkNotes (its simple and reliable) to find out more about this play, and Edmund is an illegitimate child. > > So unfortunately, I don’t think you could be any more wrong on this topic, which is kind of hilarious considering the entire text was presented earlier… He’s asking about the use of the insult bastard irrespective of birth - the bit you bolded. As you note, all those comments are about Edmund’s lineage; the use of the word bastard to describe him is not irrespective of his parentage. You’re disagreeing with him by making exactly the same point he was making. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/24 "2011-07-02T21:13:19Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I understand what you mean. The female equivalent would be bitch, which has nothing to do with female dogs. It might never have done, but for the way ‘bastard’ is used these days, it might as well not have anything to do with parentage either. > > TBH, my real reason for posting in this thread is that thelabdude’s post was pretty fucking horrible and I kept hoping a mod would pull him up on it. I did report it, but I guess it must fit the posting criteria somehow. > > As a point of interest: my daughter’s original long birth certificate (UK), issued in 1998, had a few short guidance notes on the back, one of which referred to the father’s name space and said ‘for bastard children, this is usually left blank.’ Subsequent reissues have left that out. You might do well to read up on some current sociology. ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/25 "2011-07-02T21:36:41Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > Over all, bastards get less attention from their fathers. Their mothers may also be disadvantaged and have a history of poor decisions. Thus, bastards are a product of their upbringing and reflect it. **Everyone** is a product of their upbringing. Though many may, not all of any group, “reflect it”. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/26 "2011-07-02T23:30:19Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > There are only illegitimate parents. > Society labels the children that way because of what is called canon law and Civil law that would probable cross back to canon law IMO. Those that follow what is called cannon law mistakenly think they are Christians. [moderating] Witnessing is not allowed in this forum. Do not make any more posts like this. And everyone else, this is GQ. Stick to factual answers, please, not opinions or debates. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/27 "2011-07-03T01:07:38Z")
Another tern (also gender neutral) is ‘natural child’. Third definition in the Mirriam Webster dictionary under ‘natural’ and used in Jane Austen’s _Emma_ in describing the ultimately illegitimate Harriet Smith. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/28 "2011-07-03T01:14:02Z")
Girls don’t count. Historically, it’s true. Sons matter, daughters don’t. So whether or not a daughter was produced by an assignation was irrelevant. They couldn’t inherit, so who cared? ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/29 "2011-07-03T01:35:54Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Girls don’t count. > Historically, it’s true. Sons matter, daughters don’t. So whether or not a daughter was produced by an assignation was irrelevant. They couldn’t inherit, so who cared? Actually, considering the value of political marriages, some families cared quite a great deal about their daughters, as they were essential pawns in placing the family higher in the nobility, or in a better political alignment, through their marriages to well-placed, politically approved, or otherwise influential men. Having a bastard daughter (at least a KNOWN bastard daughter) could have been quite limiting to the family as a whole, and a very noticeable loss to their ability to make alliances. At the very least, having ONE known bastard put all of the children of that family in doubt - the combination of one bastard without having any way to know the truth about the others would be a black mark against the lot of them. A bastard sibling, regardless of gender, could very well squelch the marriage propositions of an entirely legitimate brother or sister. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/30 "2011-07-03T02:14:51Z")
But you could mitigate the bastardry by cutting that family member . (\*Emma \*again)Harriet Smith was schooled and housed out in the country since her father was “rich enough to afford her the comfortable maintenance … and decent enough to have always wished for concealment” Again from Austen, but _Mansfield Park_ this time. Maria commits adultery and is refused access back into the family home. The most her father will do for her is provide accomodation, but she will never speak to or be acknowledged by her family again. It’s the only way they can maintain their standing in society. In Pride and Prejudice, Wickham has to be forced into marrying Lydia so she can avoid the same fate as Darcy’s younger sister who will remain unmarried at home after being ‘despoiled’. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/31 "2011-07-03T02:45:17Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Girls don’t count. > Historically, it’s true. Sons matter, daughters don’t. So whether or not a daughter was produced by an assignation was irrelevant. They couldn’t inherit, so who cared? Depends on the society. There are matrilineal societies (for example the Naxi in what is now SW china). Some of the Tibetans had a different take, where brothers shared a main wife, and inheritance was according to the main wife irrespective of the father. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/32 "2011-07-03T03:41:00Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Girls don’t count. > Historically, it’s true. Sons matter, daughters don’t. So whether or not a daughter was produced by an assignation was irrelevant. They couldn’t inherit, so who cared? Generally, but it also varied just a bit on the rank. Bastard daughters were very occasionally sought after as brides by lesser ranked nobility if the father was important enough to a.) provide a rich dowry and/or b.) was of high enough rank that even a bastard daughter was better than nothing. The bastards of someone of thr rank of HRE or the Byzantine emperor could be somewhat valuable as minor political tokens. So for example the HRE Frederick II had at least four illegitimate daughters. One became a nun, but the other three were married off to prominent Italian noblemen. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/33 "2011-07-03T03:50:00Z")
Not to mention the acknowleged bastard children of the various Borgia popes…definitely not much stigma on those! ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/34 "2011-07-03T22:36:06Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > You might do well to read up on some current sociology. You know, what, somehow I don’t think there’s any sociology that will back up the irrelevant and vile opinions that you’ve posted in this GQ thread. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/35 "2011-07-03T22:40:19Z")
No studies showing children in fatherless homes do worse? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/36 "2011-07-03T23:11:51Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > No studies showing children in fatherless homes do worse? That’s really not what you said. You haven’t said anything that is actually relevant to this thread, so I think I’m just going to leave this now. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/37 "2011-07-04T03:53:17Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > No studies showing children in fatherless homes do worse? [moderating] Stop with the hijacks. This is GQ and you’re doing nothing to answer the question. If you want a debate, we have another forum for that. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/38 "2011-07-08T00:59:27Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > In Pride and Prejudice, Wickham has to be forced into marrying Lydia so she can avoid the same fate as Darcy’s younger sister who will remain unmarried at home after being ‘despoiled’. That’s not quite right. Everyone pushes to get Lydia married (especially Darcy), so that \*\*\*her sisters \*\*\* stand some chance of decent marriages. Lydia is allowed to visit the family home only to squelch gossip. And Darcy’s younger sister wasn’t despoiled; Wickham and she were prevented from eloping. I think you confuse her with the young woman offstage in _Sense and Sensibility_ - the colonel’s god-daughter? ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/39 "2011-07-08T03:12:25Z")
> [@j66](#): > > That’s not quite right. Everyone pushes to get Lydia married (especially Darcy), so that \*\*\*her sisters \*\*\* stand some chance of decent marriages. Lydia is allowed to visit the family home only to squelch gossip. > > And Darcy’s younger sister wasn’t despoiled; Wickham and she were prevented from eloping. I think you confuse her with the young woman offstage in _Sense and Sensibility_ - the colonel’s god-daughter? Yes, if Lydia remained unmarried, her sisters would not make good marriage material. Lizzie realizes as much after telling Darcy about Lydia running away with Wickham. It wasn’t Lydia but Maria from _Mansfield Park_ who was never allowed home again, I do make that clear in my post. Lydia was allowed home _after she was married_. Her mother doesn’t understand why she can’t be allowed home before. The wrap up at the end of the novel specifically states that Georgiana’s home was to remain at Pemberly with Lizzie and Darcy. However close Wickham got to her in Ramsgate, she’s tainted. The Colonel’s god-daughter in S&S was another ‘natural’ child (his childhood sweeteart’s) who was loved enough to be cared for and shameful enough to be hidden. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527/40 "2011-07-08T17:15:40Z")
regarding the “bastard” as an insult irrespective of actual parentage, one of the Patrick O’Brien novels portray a quarrel between Aubrey and Maturin in which Aubrey calls Maturin a bastard in addition to other opprobrious names. Aubrey later formally apologizes to Maturin on the grounds that Maturin actually is illegitimate, and so calling him that was a \*faux pas \*(Aubrey does not withdraw the other insults which are grounds for a duel). This is probably irrelevant to the thread because, while this story is set in the 18-teens, it was written in the 20-aughts, but O’Brien did seem to have excellent research on the social conditions that he wrote about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fatherless-daughter-term/573527.md?page=3)