# Father's quest for his kids goes down in flames; advice (and sympathy) requested **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 21, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416 "2011-01-21T04:00:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/21 "2011-01-21T23:03:04Z")
> [@YoSaffBridge](#): > > What an awful situation. You have my sympathy. > > Just so I have this straight…I’ve only skimmed the other threads. Susan has 3 kids with Greg (1st husband), 3 kids with Child Molester (2nd husband) and now a new boyfriend has moved in with his own 3 kids? What sort of place are they living in that can comfortably house 11 people if her only income is child support for the three oldest? Or are the kids sleeping all stacked up in bunkbeds? No, there’s only 7 kids in the house. Greg’s 3, molester stepfather’s 3, and only one from the new boyfriend Mark – a 4-year-old boy, and he is only there 50% of the time. His other two are not with him. Here’s an interesting part of the story regarding the new Mark’s other 2 kids. Apparently, he got his girlfriend pregnant when we was 17 (he is 33 now), they had the baby, got married and had another child. Then, his wife started up an affair with his brother. The wife left him for his brother, she took the kids, brother and ex-wife got married. Somehow the ex-wife got Mark to sign away his parental rights, and his brother adopted the kids. He has never seen them again. They are in their late teens now. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/22 "2011-01-21T23:07:34Z")
I’ve been following your threads on this situation and hoping this wouldn’t be the ultimate outcome. I think I’m leaning towards the people who are suggesting media attention. Maybe it won’t go anywhere, but you never know. edit: Hit submit too soon. Anyway, you have my deepest sympathy. This whole story just sucks and makes me wants to punch somebody. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/23 "2011-01-21T23:18:05Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > What a rotten situation. > > Does Greg have any visitation now? Has he been seeing the boys? How do they act around him? Do they have any contact with other family members on Greg’s side – aunts, uncles, grandparents? > > I know that kids can be manipulated and brainwashed, but if things are so much worse with mom than with dad, wouldn’t at least the 14-year-old speak up? It sounds like if the kids had spoken more favorably toward Greg, the outcome might have been different. Greg used to have regular visitation. However, two years ago when Greg filed for custody, Susan has done everything in her power to prevent visitation. And she has been very successful. For example, he is supposed to have visitation every summer. In the months leading up to this summer (2010), Greg tried to make arrangements with Susan for the boys to fly out to visit. He needed to plan in advance to buy plane tickets and to take time off work. She resisted at every turn. She said the boys do not want to see you, and I am not going to make them. Finally, a month before visitation was to take place (July), Greg had his lawyer file a motion with the court to enforce his visitation rights. The court ordered Susan to allow the boys to visit. Of course, she had to make it as difficult as possible. First, in their custody decree, it states that Greg and Susan are to split travel costs for the boys’ visitation 50/50. Well of course she has never paid a penny, and didn’t now. But her stalling for several months resulted in Greg having to pay a lot more for plane tickets than he would have if he had bought them earlier. The courts did not grant Greg’s request for Susan to pay the difference. She also initially refused to take the kids to the airport. She made up all sorts of lame excuses about why she could not take them. So, Greg arranged for his good friend who lives there to take the kids to the airport. Of course Susan refused this. Finally, with some legal wrangling, Susan did take the kids to the airport. She dropped them off 3 hours early with no money, so they sat alone at the gate with no money to buy food or drinks. :rolleyes: The kids arrived and we had a good time. Of course, Susan’s craziness didn’t stop. The day after they arrived, she sent a frantic email and voice mail threatening to call the police to report that Greg was trying to kidnap the kids. She believed this because she could not find the return ticket info that Greg had sent her. She had it, but she has poor reading comprehension so she did not understand what she was looking at. It took quite some time to talk her down. But in the meantime, she made several calls to the family therapist who was doing the custody report and reported that Greg was kidnapping the kids. After the visit, within minutes of the boys landing safely and being picked up by Susan, she was on the phone to Greg alleging all kinds of things based on tales the boys told. For example, when my parents were telling the boys goodbye, they said “we really enjoyed your visit, you should come back soon, we would love to have you stay with us anytime…” This was interpreted as my parents telling the boys that they should not leave and should stay here. There were other things too. We thought the boys had a good time. But when the family therapist interviewed them about their visit, they told her they were bored and a bunch of other lies about the trip. It really hurt after all the effort we put into making it a great visit. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/24 "2011-01-21T23:24:24Z")
I am so sorry. I wish there was any advice that I could give you. There is no question that the system has failed Greg terribly. (OK, I have one teeny piece of advice - if he gets visitation this summer, see if you can arrange to have a local social worker interview the boys and write a report _before_ they go back to Susan. I don’t know if it will help, but it seems like it can’t hurt.) Good luck. You have my sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/25 "2011-01-21T23:39:00Z")
Another depressing part of the story… Just today we got a copy of Susan’s “Income and Expense Declaration.” It’s basically a document they both have to fill out listing all their income and expenses. The only “income” she receives for her entire household is $700/month in “public assistance.” She lists the members of her household: her 6 children plus her boyfriend Mark, age 33, unemployed. He is listed as paying $0 in household expenses. Her monthly expenses are listed as $3,456. There is another section called “Special Hardships,” which says “I ask the court to consider the following special financial circumstances:” She writes “Biological father of three minor children is currently incarcerated and is not paying any child support.” Ok, so let’s do some math here. Greg pays $2,500 a month to Susan for child support. Plus she gets $700 a month in welfare. That is $3,200. A grown man, her boyfriend, is living there and contributing $0 to the household expenses. Three additional children are living there with no child support. Her monthly expenses are $3,456, minus her “income” of $3,200, leaves a deficit of $256. Where she is getting that, I don’t know… But what this CLEARLY proves is that GREG’S CHILD SUPPORT IS SUPPORTING NOT ONLY HIS 3 KIDS, BUT 3 OTHER KIDS, SUSAN AND HER BOYFRIEND. And there is not a DAMN THING HE CAN DO ABOUT IT. It is an irrelevant issue before the court. Greg owes how much he owes, and he cannot say anything about how it is spent. We have tried. It just will not be considered before the court. This is so infuriating, it’s enough to drive someone mad. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/26 "2011-01-21T23:43:10Z")
As far as some suggestions that we go to the media. I am very skeptical that would work. I used to be a journalist, working as a reporter and editor at several local newspapers. We wouldn’t touch a story like this because, 1. there are privacy issues since it involves minors and a family court and 2. it’s too complicated and too much “he said, she said.” Although I do have an idea to start a blog, and to try to publicize the blog on father’s rights web sites, etc. Maybe that could get the story some attention. Basically, there is a huge block of family law that needs to be changed, which is a monumental task and I doubt I will see much progress in my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/27 "2011-01-22T00:02:54Z")
Yes, the system is biased against fathers. I know. Most divorced fathers learn this quite well, and too late. You have my sympathy. How did Greg and the kids get so far apart that visitation requires air travel? That sounds like where the circumstances permitting “brainwashing” were created. > [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > As far as some suggestions that we go to the media. I am very skeptical that would work. I used to be a journalist, working as a reporter and editor at several local newspapers. We wouldn’t touch a story like this because… It’s not news? Similar things happen all the time. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/28 "2011-01-22T00:09:30Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > We thought the boys had a good time. But when the family therapist interviewed them about their visit, they told her they were bored and a bunch of other lies about the trip. It really hurt after all the effort we put into making it a great visit. ☹ When we were talking with our attorney during the process of gaining legal custody of our niece, he told us something I’d never heard. He said that, if you put the two parents at opposite ends of a room, and asked the child to choose one, the child would choose the abusive parent. Every time. So, I would take these claims of boredom and such with a grain of salt. They are likely saying this because they think it’s what Mommy wants them to say. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/29 "2011-01-22T00:10:13Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Yes, the system is biased against fathers. I know. > > How did Greg and the kids get so far apart that visitation requires air travel? That sounds like where the circumstances permitting “brainwashing” were created. Unfortunately, Greg lives in Virginia and the children live in California. Greg moved to Virginia for work. The field he is in (federal government) is based in the Washington DC-metropolitan area, and this is where his career is. Initially, Susan said she was going to move to the East Coast, as her husband’s family lives here. Well with her husband’s incarceration and their divorce, that is not going to happen. To those who say that Greg should move back to California: California’s economy sucks. The unemployment rate is high. Especially the area where Susan lives. She lives in a small crappy town like an hour away from Sacramento. There are NO JOBS there. On the other hand, the Washington DC metro area is thriving. Low unemployment rate, low foreclosure rate, and with the Federal government here, jobs are being added all the time. If anything, Susan should move here. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/30 "2011-01-22T00:13:02Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > When we were talking with our attorney during the process of gaining legal custody of our niece, he told us something I’d never heard. He said that, if you put the two parents at opposite ends of a room, and asked the child to choose one, the child would choose the abusive parent. Every time. So, I would take these claims of boredom and such with a grain of salt. They are likely saying this because they think it’s what Mommy wants them to say. Oh absolutely. I have no doubt that they say bad things about Greg because they know it’s what their mother wants to hear. I should also add that Susan talks crap about Greg in front of the kids all the time. On the other hand, in the 6 years we have been together, I have NEVER heard Greg say a negative word about Susan in front of the boys. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/31 "2011-01-22T00:27:31Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > Unfortunately, Greg lives in Virginia and the children live in California. Greg moved to Virginia for work. So he moved away from the state where his kids lived with their mother? Sorry to say, and good reasons notwithstanding, but that’s probably an unrecoverable decision for a father to make. ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/32 "2011-01-22T00:36:07Z")
I have no advice to offer, my dear. But you two _do_ have my sympathies! I will be thinking of you! ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/33 "2011-01-22T00:50:47Z")
I’m so sorry about all of this. I wish I had advice. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/34 "2011-01-22T00:53:09Z")
I’ve read your saga before, so I’m not going to offer the advice that’s been offered in other threads. The problem with the dad staying close to the kids, is, what if the mother decides to move across country on a whim, and then move back two months later? Is he supposed to keep on quitting jobs and following his ex-wife around? I can’t really blame the ex-wife for not believing in the child molester’s guilt, if it was her husband. It might take a lot to convince someone that they married a creep. In a way, I wonder if it would have been better (in the sense that it would help your boyfriend’s case) if she still believed he was innocent and stayed married to him. I don’t have a lot of experience in these matters, but I’m not sure I believe this theory that the kids will come around later. Not be a jerk about it, but it’s surely possible they might never reconcile with their father, and become permanently estranged. In any case your boyfriend will be missing out on a huge chunk of their lives, the part of their lives where they most need a father. I would also be tempted to start a blog or website laying all this out, but then I don’t know how this would hurt or help you in case there were further custody hearings in court, and what would happen if your website all of a suddent made it to the front page of a popular site like Reddit and a bunch of internet vigilantes started sending the ex-wife nasty e-mails or internet pizzas. I would tell your boyfriend to keep up his spirits, but then when I’m in a bad mood because bad things have happened to me, people telling me to cheer up just make me more angry. The only advice I have: get the maximum out of your court-ordered visitation time, and get immediately on the ex-wife’s case when she’s dragging her feet about sending the kids over. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/35 "2011-01-22T01:07:10Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > So he moved away from the state where his kids lived with their mother? > > Sorry to say, and good reasons notwithstanding, but that’s probably an unrecoverable decision for a father to make. He is the family’s sole breadwinner. His job and career field is with the Federal government. He had to move. There were no jobs for him there. Considering the amount of time he put into 15 years of a career plus the effort and money to get a master’s degree in his field, it would not benefit anyone for him to stay in a small town in the worst recession-stricken part of California. They would be better off living full-time with him, on so many levels. Better schools and better education, for example. This is one of the many reasons why Greg went for custody. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/36 "2011-01-22T01:39:37Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > To those who say that Greg should move back to California: California’s economy sucks. The unemployment rate is high. Especially the area where Susan lives. She lives in a small crappy town like an hour away from Sacramento. There are NO JOBS there. Oh, she lives in my neck of the woods then. Yeah, there are no jobs here. If Greg works for the government, it’s a good thing he’s not here. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/37 "2011-01-22T01:41:45Z")
I’m so, so very sorry to hear this. My thoughts are with all of you - you, Greg, AND those poor children. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/38 "2011-01-22T02:43:12Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > I’ve read your saga before, so I’m not going to offer the advice that’s been offered in other threads. > The problem with the dad staying close to the kids, is, what if the mother decides to move across country on a whim, and then move back two months later? Is he supposed to keep on quitting jobs and following his ex-wife around? Exactly. Like I said before, Susan had previously said - at the time Greg moved to Virginia - that she was planning to move to the East Coast also. > [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > I would also be tempted to start a blog or website laying all this out, but then I don’t know how this would hurt or help you in case there were further custody hearings in court, and what would happen if your website all of a suddent made it to the front page of a popular site like Reddit and a bunch of internet vigilantes started sending the ex-wife nasty e-mails or internet pizzas. I am seriously considering a blog. I also want to post our story to Reddit’s Men’s Rights forum. I plan to keep the blog and story anonymous, so there is no chance of vigilantism or internet pizza (although I do love pizza!) If I don’t use any real names or identifying information, I should be able to keep it anonymous, right? Thank you so much for your comments **Arnold Winkelried** and everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/39 "2011-01-22T02:46:11Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Oh, she lives in my neck of the woods then. Yeah, there are no jobs here. If Greg works for the government, it’s a good thing he’s not here. Thank you **Dangermom**. I just now heard on the radio that the unemployment rate in the DC-Metro area is less than 5%, while in the central valley of California (and the state as a whole) the unemployment rate is above 10%. Considering Susan and her boyfriend Mark are chronically unemployed, maybe they should move here, right?!! That would be a win-win-win situation. Too bad it will never happen because Susan and Mark don’t WANT to be employed. Susan is a welfare queen and Mark is her leech. What a great example to set for the children!! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/40 "2011-01-22T02:50:55Z")
Speaking of setting an example for the children in regards to education, jobs and personal lives… Here is a comparison of Greg and Susan: Greg: Bachelor’s degree and master’s degree from prestigious university Susan: No education beyond high school Greg: High level, well-paying job; 15-year career Susan: Has never worked outside of the home Greg: Girlfriend with college degree, career Susan: Ex-husband with no education, no career; unemployed high-school drop-out boyfriend Greg: Steady girlfriend of 6 years; never divorced, no illegitimate children (that’s me, BTW) Susan: Had child with one man while married to another; ex-husband in prison who was previously divorced with 1 other child (no custody); boyfriend divorced twice with 3 other children (2 no custody). To summarize – Greg: Good education and stable personal life with stable educated partner; Susan: No education and uneducated partners with chaotic unstable personal backgrounds. Which home provides the better adult role models for the kids? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416.md?page=3)