# Father's quest for his kids goes down in flames; advice (and sympathy) requested **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 21, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416 "2011-01-21T04:00:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/141 "2011-01-26T01:47:01Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > I have to disagree with what you just wrote. Your assumption seems to be “the children should live with the mother, period. If the father wants custody he is at fault. The father trying to use the legal system to gain custody of the children is unfair.” > Why should it be unfair? Why shouldn’t the father have custody? no, there is no assumption made about ought to have custody. the fact is that the custody determination was made, and then the non-custodial party sought a modification. not having a provision\* for attorneys fees for the responding party in a custody modification suit is a recipe for a complete end around of the entire custody decision. \*OP notes that the respondent here has petitioned. If it’s unwarranted, it won’t be awarded. > [@](#): > > Do you think that money should play zero part in the considerations of who to assign custody to? ceteris paribus? no, it should play a part. but it’s not particularly good evidence in making a child custody determination, imho. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/142 "2011-01-26T02:00:08Z")
To get to the root of the OP: after reading the information presented in this thread, do you think it is unreasonable for the father to want to have custody for his children? Do you think it is unreasonable for the father to be upset that he lost the case? If the mother had lost the custody case, should she have to pay the father’s legal fees? Should the fact that the mother was married to a pedophile, and refused to admit it, constitute good evidence in making a child custody determination? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/143 "2011-01-26T02:04:43Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > To get to the root of the OP: after reading the information presented in this thread, do you think it is unreasonable for the father to want to have custody for his children? no. but it doesn’t necessarily follow from that that it is unreasonable that the respondent in this action would be awarded attorney’s fees. > [@](#): > > Do you think it is unreasonable for the father to be upset that he lost the case? unreasonable to be upset? i.e. unreasonable to have an emotional reaction in regards to someone you love? no > [@](#): > > If the mother had lost the custody case, should she have to pay the father’s legal fees? no. but you’re missing the entire point of a provision that awards attorneys’ fees in defending a modification of custody. > [@](#): > > Should the fact that the mother was married to a pedophile, and refused to admit it, constitute good evidence in making a child custody determination? by itself? yes. assuming this is even being reported fairly and accurately (which, frankly, I don’t believe is the case) in concert with the conclusions of the person doing the custody evaluation, in conjunction with the fact that the parent now seeking modification lives 3000 miles away? that’s something for the judge to decide and weigh out as he/she sees fit. i would still give it great weight (again, assuming we’re actually getting the whole picture), but it’s not like any contrary decision is manifestly incorrect (especially if the dude is now incarcerated) ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/144 "2011-01-26T02:12:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Also while this may sound horrible, if I was in Greg’s shoes I would actively not care about the children’s schooling. If they do very badly at school then they won’t end up going to college and since non-custodial parents can be forced to pay for college education it’s actually to Greg’s benefit if his children do not go to college at all. To his financial benefit? Let’s assume that Greg believes that going to college will help you make a better life for yourself. How would his children being denied opportunities in life be to Greg’s benefit? Unless you assume that Greg is only in it for the money. If he were, then it would be to his benefit if all children took ill and suddenly died. Think of all the money he would save then! ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/145 "2011-01-26T02:18:37Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > no. but you’re missing the entire point of a provision that awards attorneys’ fees in defending a modification of custody. What if the father had won the modification of custody case? Should he still have to pay the mother’s legal fees? I understand the point that you shouldn’t be able to continuously rechallenge a custody agreement, but in this case it seems that there were pretty good reasons to. > [@](#): > > by itself? yes. assuming this is even being reported fairly and accurately (which, frankly, I don’t believe is the case) Of course it’s biased, but if you take that position, then the best you could say is “The decision may or may not have been just, I cannot tell” and not give an opinion one way or the other. > [@](#): > > in concert with the conclusions of the person doing the custody evaluation, in conjunction with the fact that the parent now seeking modification lives 3000 miles away? that’s something for the judge to decide and weigh out as he/she sees fit. i would still give it great weight (again, assuming we’re actually getting the whole picture), but it’s not like any contrary decision is manifestly incorrect (especially if the dude is now incarcerated) Did you also take into consideration the fact that the custodial parent has been actively obstructing the non-custodial parent’s visiting rights? That the custodial parent has been lying to the non-custodial parent about the children’s schooling, and allowing the child to lie to the non-custodial parent about his schooling? Should that be considered also? Shiould having a stable place of residence, one that does not require the children to change schools several times in one year, also be considered? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/146 "2011-01-26T02:33:00Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > What if the father had won the modification of custody case? Should he still have to pay the mother’s legal fees? I understand the point that you shouldn’t be able to continuously rechallenge a custody agreement, but in this case it seems that there were pretty good reasons to. sure, but bitching and demonstrating the same level of regard for “the process” as the OP has heretofore shown is not effective criticism. keep in mind, the OP is bitching about the petition for them (or the settlement offer incorporating them) - the attorney’s fees haven’t even been awarded yet. > [@](#): > > Of course it’s biased, but if you take that position, then the best you could say is “The decision may or may not have been just, I cannot tell” and not give an opinion one way or the other. Well that is the position i’m taking. I’m going to assume that the decision is just until it can be substantially demonstrated that it isn’t (and, one-sided forums aren’t exactly amenable to that). But when I read “custody conclusion in favor of maintaining status quo” + “non-custodial parent lives way far away from jurisdiction” + “here’s a bunch of invective coming from a biased party talking about how custodial parent’s paramour is an awful kiddie raper” I’m going to discount the most probably highly biased piece of that equation, focus on the remaining ones, and pass my own opinion (as I did). Look, courts aren’t deaf to the perils of real deal sexually (or not) abusive people who interact with children when you’re talking about custody. I think the reasonable conclusion here is not “bah, the judges 999 times of 1000 just give custody to the mom, regardless” it’s “oh, we’re probably getting one side of that story here, and the judge made a judgment call on some facts that probably aren’t a tenth as bad as they are portrayed here to be”. > [@](#): > > Did you also take into consideration the fact that the custodial parent has been actively obstructing the non-custodial parent’s visiting rights? That the custodial parent has been lying to the non-custodial parent about the children’s schooling, and allowing the child to lie to the non-custodial parent about his schooling? Should that be considered also? Is having a stable place of residence, one that does not require the children to change schools several times in one year, also be considered? No, I didn’t, since I don’t care enough to acquaint myself with all the facts of this particular custody decision. And yes, it should all be considered. As it invariably was. Having a qualified third party come in and say “this is what I think the custody should be” is extremely, extremely strong evidence. It’s like the kiss of death, basically. The rest, frankly, is squabbling and bitching about details that are of (relatively) no consequence once that conclusion has been made. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/147 "2011-01-26T02:42:15Z")
Missed edit window: as for two of your facts, they’re ultimately probably irrelevant. I’m not so sure (doubly not so sure since I don’t have the custody order in my face) that non-custodial parents have to be kept up-to-speed in great detail about their kids’ schooling, so lying to that person about it strikes me as no big deal. Likewise, a stable place of residence 3-thousand-plus clicks away from everything and anything the children have ever known (if this is the case, obviously) isn’t such a cut-and-dried better thing than several residence changes in the same generalized area where that residence situation is stabilized by the time the court has to make a decision. And that counts double if the residence instability occurred after the custody determination. ---
**Author:** ![leni64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@leni64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leni64)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/148 "2011-01-26T02:45:40Z")
I’m so sorry for all of you. The saddest part is that the children are probably so adamate about staying with their mother because they feel they have to take care of her. It happens to often. Children are the ones who need to be taken care of, I wish I had some sage advice but all I can offer is my sympathy. My husband went through a similiar situation and now my son is fighting for visitation with his son. The courts are useless, its as if fathers have no rights at all. I can tell you that in order to have a relationship with his sons in the future, your husband should not force any long visits that they can resent. He needs to keep in touch and let them know he’ll always love them and always be there and hope they come around. Its so hard when their mother probably blames all of their problems on Dad. Best Wishes ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/149 "2011-01-26T02:52:13Z")
Hey **Nyctea** , no advice, unfortunately. I remember meeting you at the Stewart Rally dopefest and you seem like a really nice person. You don’t deserve this shit, and I hope things work out for you. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/150 "2011-01-26T03:37:35Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > assuming this is even being reported fairly and accurately (which, frankly, I don’t believe is the case) [QUOTE=Rumor\_Watkins] No, I didn’t, since I don’t care enough to acquaint myself with all the facts of this particular custody decision. [/QUOTE] Basically you’re saying that 1. You don’t believe what I have said about Susan’s husband being accused of/convicted of/jailed for child molestation (why you don’t believe it you don’t say) and 2. You haven’t even read the thread. Both of these points lead me to believe you’re just thread-shitting for the fun of it. I could link to the newspaper articles about the stepfather’s criminal case, but then my anonymity would be blown. In regards to a child custody case, no one could reasonably expect me to reveal real identities here. That is absurd. Lastly, if you can’t be bothered to even read the whole thread, then I am not going to continue to consider any of your comments. You’re just thread-shitting in a thread about a very serious matter. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/151 "2011-01-26T03:39:03Z")
Just wanted to say thank you to **Arnold Winkelried** , **leni64** , and **Larry Borgia** , and many others, who have taken the time to read the thread and offer kind and useful comments. ---
**Author:** ![Alice\_The\_Goon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Alice\_The\_Goon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alice_The_Goon)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/152 "2011-01-26T03:59:02Z")
Come on, you should know how this place works by now. If you wanted only loving and uplifting comments, you should have kept it to your livejournal. There are as many opinions here as there are people, and we’re not all going to blow sunshine up your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/153 "2011-01-26T04:12:55Z")
> [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > Come on, you should know how this place works by now. If you wanted only loving and uplifting comments, you should have kept it to your livejournal. There are as many opinions here as there are people, and we’re not all going to blow sunshine up your ass. Yes yes, I know. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/154 "2011-01-26T04:47:52Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > Basically you’re saying that 1. You don’t believe what I have said about Susan’s husband being accused of/convicted of/jailed for child molestation (why you don’t believe it you don’t say) and 2. You haven’t even read the thread. if you’re as good at summing up your bf’s legal case as you are at summing up what i’m “basically” saying, then I can see that my conclusions about your veracity and neutrality were probably accurate. and no, i don’t believe you’ve given a fair and balanced depiction of how Susan’s husband’s criminal behavior had an impact on the custody determination. and my or my not reading the thread is irrelevant to what i was originally posting. try harder ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/155 "2011-01-26T05:30:30Z")
You keep saying that Susan refuses to get a job, but you also say that she has no real marketable skills. So even if she decided to move out to the DC area, she would only be able to work a minimum-wage job. Greg’s child support agreement is already calculated as if she was working a minimum-wage job. Susan working at this point in time would do nothing for Greg’s support calculation or the children’s welfare, since the wages would be eaten up by childcare. You keep talking about Susan as if she knew when she married her ex-husband that he was a bastard. But by your own account he provided well for Susan and their children and his step-children. You also say that as soon as Susan found out the truth about him, she divorced him. You call her a welfare queen, when by your account the only income she has is Greg’s child support. Child support is not welfare. You complain about her not paying for half of the fare for 3 round-trip plane tickets, when by your own account she has no money. And the generous offer was to pay for the tickets upfront and “let her” pay back overtime. With what money? You say the kids are doing poorly in school, but by your own account they didn’t begin to go downhill until after their father left them and their step-father was arrested. And their mother has been constantly worried about losing 3 of her children and having the other 3 further traumatized. You say that Susan’s new boyfriend is a low-life because he’s unemployed, but by your own account he was working when they met and is now unable to work because of a disability. Now, you’re thinking that walking away from the kids even more is actually an idea worth considering? That finding some way to have her thrown in jail and then splitting the kids up from their siblings could actually be thought about? And you compare yourself to her and think you’re better? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/156 "2011-01-26T05:55:25Z")
Yo **grayhairedmomma** , you forgot to spit at **nyctea scandiaca**. One thing that has not been mentioned… Greg’s kids have 3 half-siblings who are younger than them. It is entirely possible that they like them, and would not want to take off and see them left with their unemployed mother and unemployed boyfriend. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/157 "2011-01-26T06:25:24Z")
Just noticed on a re-read that one of the OP’s complaints about Susan is that she uproots the kids to move to new places on a regular basis. Yet she noted that when Greg and Sue were married, his role in the armed forces necessitated moving house frequently too. I’m confused as to why Greg is now suddenly concerned about the impact moving-house is having on his kids, when initially it was a career/lifestyle choice that **he** made in the first place. And consider that maybe that is why Sue and her family now continue with the ‘itchy feet’ syndrome? Perhaps they actually like moving around? Not all families are content to stay in one place forever: attributing malicious motives to her moves might be casting aspersions where none are deserved. YMMV etc, but worth considering maybe?? ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/158 "2011-01-26T06:45:37Z")
Also this: > [@](#): > > During the marriage Greg was unhappy, but kept himself busy working his main job (military), a second job, and he achieved his undergraduate degree at nights while working 2 jobs. Susan was “on birth control” but ended up getting pregnant two more times. (Read: Susan deceived Greg into having two more children.) (I know I know, it takes two, but still.) Also during this time, Greg was accepted into officer training school and became an officer. In the meantime, Susan never worked outside the home, nor took a class or anything. With three little preschool tackers at home, and an absent husband unable/unwilling to take up the child-care slack, where in the hell was she meant to get the energy to work or take classes? And at that point, why would she? Financially the family were obviously doing OK, and being a SAHM might have been more fiscally advantageous than paying exorbitant child-care fees. The more I read of this thread, the demonising of Susan and the heroics attributed to Greg, the more dubious I am becoming. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/159 "2011-01-26T07:11:04Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Just noticed on a re-read that one of the OP’s complaints about Susan is that she uproots the kids to move to new places on a regular basis. > > Yet she noted that when Greg and Sue were married, his role in the armed forces necessitated moving house frequently too. > > I’m confused as to why Greg is now suddenly concerned about the impact moving-house is having on his kids, when initially it was a career/lifestyle choice that **he** made in the first place. > > And consider that maybe that is why Sue and her family now continue with the ‘itchy feet’ syndrome? Perhaps they actually like moving around? Not all families are content to stay in one place forever: attributing malicious motives to her moves might be casting aspersions where none are deserved. > > YMMV etc, but worth considering maybe?? When Greg was in the military, they were subject to being transferred approximately every 2 years. In comparison, Susan was moving at least once a year, sometimes 2 and 3 times a year in the past several years, for no reason. That’s the difference. Another difference is that he has been out of the military for 3 years and will no longer be moving around. So it’s not an issue anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416/160 "2011-01-26T07:20:13Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Tne thing that has not been mentioned… Greg’s kids have 3 half-siblings who are younger than them. It is entirely possible that they like them, and would not want to take off and see them left with their unemployed mother and unemployed boyfriend. I definitely think this is a factor. I am sure the boys love their siblings. I feel really sorry for the other 3 children. Seriously sad for them. It really hurts my heart to think of the younger ones who have lost their father forever. This whole thing is just extremely sad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fathers-quest-for-his-kids-goes-down-in-flames-advice-and-sympathy-requested/568416.md?page=9)