# FBI announces ongoing Russian attacks against American electric grid, water processing, air **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2018, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635 "2018-03-16T02:01:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/41 "2018-03-16T14:22:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Oh the irony. Would you happen to be upset at the Russians at all? Even a tiny bit? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/42 "2018-03-16T15:14:33Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > [Bloomberg reports that](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-15/russian-hackers-attacking-u-s-power-grid-aviation-fbi-warns) > > These attacks have been traced back to at least March 2016. > > There are side references to the cyberattacks in the US sanctions that were just issued. I don’t think those sanctions alone will be enough to stop Russia from continuing to run roughshod over the world. They just keep pushing: An airliner shot down here; A peninsula annexed there; A few assassinations between “friends”. We’re in a new type of war, we’re noticing years too late, and it’s not clear yet whether we’re even going to fight. I’m feeling decidedly gloomy about this whole matter. > > How’s your Russian? I’m wondering – couldn’t we do exactly the same thing to Russia? ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/43 "2018-03-16T15:42:46Z")
> [@gytalf2000](#): > > I’m wondering – couldn’t we do exactly the same thing to Russia? I’m not. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/44 "2018-03-16T16:00:50Z")
> [@gytalf2000](#): > > I’m wondering – couldn’t we do exactly the same thing to Russia? Probably, though our intelligence agencies wouldn’t tell us if we could. The problem is is that we would be facing a MADD scenario. We both have offensive capabilities, the ability to seriously damage the other country, but we have little or no effective defense against it. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/45 "2018-03-16T16:06:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [Russian Government Cyber Activity Targeting Energy and Other Critical Infrastructure Sectors | CISA](https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A) appears to be the actual report. I’d politely submit to you that Rachel Maddow and the NYT are full of shit (at least on this point). They don’t appear to have “penetrated actual control of facilities – including nuclear facilities.” > > ETA: but I get it, what’s a bit of scare-mongering between friends to sell some advertising, right? Yep, if it ain’t on Fox, it ain’t true. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/46 "2018-03-16T16:11:16Z")
> [@gytalf2000](#): > > I’m wondering – couldn’t we do exactly the same thing to Russia? Compared to the Russian infrastructure, we live in glass houses. Best not to start tossing cyberattacks when our doors are open so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/47 "2018-03-16T16:14:55Z")
I agree with the OP. The Russian threat is real and has been escalating. I’m not thrilled about their SARMAT missile either. Obama was preoccupied and didn’t have the balls to deal with Putin properly, and Trump doesn’t have the brains. The U.S. and Europe needs to get their collective shit together. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/48 "2018-03-16T16:20:58Z")
I have no doubt that we are at war with Russia. It just isn’t a “hot” one … YET. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/49 "2018-03-16T16:23:08Z")
My take on this thread: OP: “Oh shit, the Russians have a gun pointed at us, and their finger is on the trigger!” **HD** : “Nobody has proven that the gun is loaded. Don’t be hysterical.” ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/50 "2018-03-16T16:32:18Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Compared to the Russian infrastructure, we live in glass houses. Best not to start tossing cyberattacks when our doors are open so to speak. Interesting! So, their infrastructure is that much better than ours? I didn’t know that. Distressing! ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/51 "2018-03-16T16:41:19Z")
> [@gytalf2000](#): > > Interesting! So, their infrastructure is that much better than ours? I didn’t know that. Distressing! This might make you feel better then. [https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/cyber-wars-how-the-us-stacks-up-against-its-digital-adversaries](https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/cyber-wars-how-the-us-stacks-up-against-its-digital-adversaries) ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/52 "2018-03-16T16:45:00Z")
> [@gytalf2000](#): > > Interesting! So, their infrastructure is that much better than ours? I didn’t know that. Distressing! I don’t know anything about Russian infrastructure, but here in the US, most of our critical infrastructure such as water and power distribution is managed by a vast number of individual private companies. American industry, never one to put safety or responsibility ahead of profits, hasn’t always devoted sufficient resources and effort to computer security. So, we have a situation where a bunch of independent, profit-driven enterprises are in control of a mishmash of facilities that supply us with power, water, etc. As the cliche goes, the defenders have to be right all the time, and the attackers only have to be right once. The bad guys will eventually find sufficient weaknesses in one or more networks operated by these companies to allow them to take over systems (and, as described in the CERT alert above, they apparently already have). As we saw in the Northeast blackout in 2003, a relatively minor disruption to the grid can have cascading effects. So, the bad guys take out a small, poorly secured power plant somewhere, and presto, lights go out up and down the coast. Or, they take over a nuclear plant and kill thousands. Depending on the breaks. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/53 "2018-03-16T16:58:30Z")
As usual this thread is loaded with innuendo, speculation and mongering of more than one type. There is one simple fact being overlooked in this case. And it is applicable to all the recent Western-Eastern dustups, be it electioneering, spy poisoning or (gasp) critical infrastructure cyber attacks: It’s not about “what” anyone can potentially do. Cyber ops (both offensive and defensive) is a well understood and widely utilized capability on all sides at the highest government levels. Anybody can do anything. The ongoing issue is what can we/they get away with. The Russians haven’t been very subtle lately. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/54 "2018-03-16T17:13:20Z")
I agree: poor Russia. They get all this criticism, and what has Putin ever done to anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/55 "2018-03-16T17:23:46Z")
Ars Technica’s discussion of the attacks - > **[DHS warns of new Russia hacks as US sanctions Russia over election interference](https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/dhs-warns-of-new-russia-hacks-as-us-sanctions-russia-over-election-interference/?comments=1)** > > DHS alert warns of Russian government malware targeting critical infrastructure. > [@Ars](#): > > Meanwhile, the Federal Bureau of Investigations and DHS have identified a widespread “multi-stage intrusion campaign,” as DHS officials noted in a technical alert published today. The campaign has been active since “at least March 2016,” the report noted, targeting “government entities and multiple US critical infrastructure sectors, including the energy, nuclear, commercial facilities, water, aviation, and critical manufacturing sectors.” > > \ > Once credentials were in hand, the attackers used them to gain access to systems where two-factor authentication wasn’t used. They then installed a Tomcat server and a Java Server Pages file, symantec\_help.jsp, along with a Windows script named enu.cmd, to give them persistent access to the systems. The files were consistently stored in the directory C:Program Files(x86)\Symantec\Symantec Endpoint Protection Manater omcat\webapps\ROOT. The attackers would then install Windows .aspx-based Web shells to get remote access. > > The JSP executes the script, which then attempts to create a local administrator account on the system and change the firewall settings on the targeted system. Malicious Windows .lnk files linking to remote resources and changes to the Windows registry were also **used to establish a persistent presence on targeted systems.** [bolding mine] It’s too long for me to quote the whole thing. The key point is that this is not a theoretical discussion about what Russia might hypothetically do in the future if they wanted to hack us. This is a revelation that Russia has already hacked us (using social methods, primarily) to put the first step of the hijacking process in place as a “persistent presence” on our national resources. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/56 "2018-03-16T17:32:05Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Anybody can do anything. The ongoing issue is what can we/they get away with. The Russians haven’t been very subtle lately. Therefore they haven’t also been subtle and/or successful?.. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/57 "2018-03-16T17:51:06Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Sorry, I did not even read the thread. Just need to confirm context before I either move on or start trolling… If those are your choices, I suggest moving on. Frankly, this could easily be a warning for threadshittig or trolling, but I’ll pass for now see how it develops. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/58 "2018-03-16T18:24:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, we’re not “debating FBI announcements now”, we’re debating the media’s gross mischaracterization of FBI announcements. Here, we’ll make this _REALLY_ simple: > > This is a link to the actual announcement: [Russian Government Cyber Activity Targeting Energy and Other Critical Infrastructure Sectors | CISA](https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A) > > Please quote the portion in there that says the Russians can now “shut power plants off at will” (which was how the NYT characterized it). Well, the FBI warns of attacks on domain controllers, file servers, and e-mail servers. Without knowing how the actual power systems are set up, I would like to note that gaining Domain Admin access on a Windows Domain Controller basically gives you God-like powers over the other Windows computers on that domain. Even if the domain controller doesn’t control the power systems, chances are it controls the user account of someone who does, and Domain Admins can reset that user’s password to whatever they want it to be without needing to know the previous password. Windows Domain Controllers also have the ability to install software remotely on computers that are joined to that domain. Essentially, gaining Domain Admin access is like gaining administrative access to all of the computers on the network. So the potential damages are well beyond simply perusing spreadsheets and e-mails. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/59 "2018-03-16T18:42:45Z")
When you couple these increasingly serious cyber-attacks with the increasingly serious pattern of aggressive from Russia, the whole matter looks like something we ought to be paying rather more attention to (although I object to the label "hysterical). Unless we’re prepared to let Russia set terms as they choose in our country and many others, we need to realize that our relationship with Russian is decidedly not friendly. I would define it as hostile, against us and many of our allies. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635/60 "2018-03-16T18:56:54Z")
**HD** , here’s an article saying the same thing at the National Review: > **[Officials Confirm Russian Hackers Can Shut Down U.S. Power Plants At Will |...](https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/russia-power-grids-dhs-hackers-shut-down-at-will/)** > > The hackers reportedly began infiltrating critical American infrastructure last spring. Is that cite sufficient? I can’t seem to find any mention whatsoever at Fox News. I’m genuinely baffled – usually there would be some mention somewhere. When good economic news came out during the Obama administration, it may not have been a headline like it was every place else, but it would be some place. I really can’t find it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-announces-ongoing-russian-attacks-against-american-electric-grid-water-processing-air/810635.md?page=4)