# FBI Kept Tabs on Mort Sahl's Jokes About It, and Hoover Thought Sahl Was a 'Sick' **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** comedian-jokes\ **Created:** [July 3, 2022, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361 "2022-07-03T22:57:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/1 "2022-07-03T22:57:12Z")
Just published… This is an effective comedian. Not just being the best, but attacking real power, not … whatever they do now (get along with their corporate sponsors)… Not hard to imagine Hoover and the FBI in general go after a comedian. He had power. You don’t write for Presidents without that skill. > **[The FBI Kept Tabs on Mort Sahl's Jokes About It, and Hoover Thought Sahl Was...](https://reason.com/2022/06/30/the-fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick-man/)** > > Pioneering standup comedian Mort Sahl often joked about the FBI. Sahl's FBI files show that the feds kept tabs on him. “The feds ultimately decided not to talk to Sahl about his offending jokes, fearing he would publicly roast them.” – which is hilarious and I wonder how Mort would have relayed this story and HOW he’d roast them. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/2 "2022-07-04T03:51:56Z")
Typical Hoover behavior. This kind of fascist shit is not a new thing in this country. ---
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/3 "2022-07-04T14:17:09Z")
Right… But unfortunately, it seems like the only ones who care or say something only do say because they’re in the out-group (after being “in”)… Mort Sahl was the patriot. Hoover was a traitor in every way. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/4 "2022-07-04T14:23:56Z")
It’s interesting to see how broadly the term “sick comedy” was used back then. It was applied at various times to Lenny Bruce, Mort Sahl, Shelley Berman, Jonathan Winters, Mike Nichols, Elaine May, Tom Lehrer, _Mad Magazine_, Jules Feiffer, Charles Addams, and Dick Gregory. It was applied to anything even slightly more controversial than the usual comedians. If the FBI thought they could somehow isolate any sick comedian (by their standards) from any position in organizations like the FBI, they didn’t do a very good job of it. Tom Lehrer worked both for NSA and Los Alamos National Laboratory: > **[Tom Lehrer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Lehrer)** > > Thomas Andrew Lehrer (/ˈlɛərər/; born April 9, 1928) is an American former musician, singer-songwriter, satirist, and mathematician, having lectured on mathematics and musical theater. He is best known for the pithy and humorous songs that he recorded in the 1950s and 1960s. His songs often parodied popular musical forms, though he usually created original melodies when doing so. A notable exception is "The Elements", in which he set the names of the chemical elements to the tune of the "Major-... ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/5 "2022-07-04T14:33:15Z")
> [@MortSahlFan](#): > > Mort Sahl was the patriot. Hoover was a traitor in every way. Logic and reason don’t apply, it’s just the way it was. Nobody cares what Hoover thought about Mort Sahl. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/6 "2022-07-04T14:38:30Z")
Hoover had files on everybody, friends and foe alike. Mort Sahl was not special in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/7 "2022-07-04T17:03:42Z")
Not today. But when they were alive and working, Hoover could make or break careers and at least subject them to constant harassment. He had enormous power. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/8 "2022-07-04T17:07:58Z")
Hoover tried to use the FBI to police culture and politics when it should have just been policing actual criminal behavior. He also used it to try to stop talk about his personal life. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/9 "2022-07-04T18:54:38Z")
I love Sahl’s joke about Bobby Kennedy’s DOJ authorizing wire tapping: “_Little_ brother is watching you “. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/10 "2022-07-04T19:09:54Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Hoover tried to use the FBI to police culture and politics when it should have just been policing actual criminal behavior. He also used it to try to stop talk about his personal life. Not that I would care or find anything wrong with it, but Hoover had to be gay, right? He definitely was dating or more or less married to that Tolson guy? He must have been massively paranoid about it. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/11 "2022-07-04T19:10:10Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I love Sahl’s joke about Bobby Kennedy’s DOJ authorizing wire tapping: “_Little_ brother is watching you “ That’s a great joke. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/12 "2022-07-04T22:07:26Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Not that I would care or find anything wrong with it, but Hoover had to be gay, right? Despite enormous amounts of speculation, piles of gossipy books, and the facts of his close relationship with Clyde Tolson, there isn’t a shred of actual evidence that the two were lovers. So, **had** to be? No. Quite possibly were? Yes. Just intimate but platonic friends? Also yes. Saying anything else isn’t good history. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2022, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/13 "2022-07-09T16:16:11Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Despite enormous amounts of speculation, piles of gossipy books, and the facts of his close relationship with Clyde Tolson, there isn’t a shred of actual evidence that the two were lovers. > > So, **had** to be? No. Quite possibly were? Yes. Just intimate but platonic friends? Also yes. Saying anything else isn’t good history. This is my take on it. Also, the stuff about him dressing in drag was apparently based on one incident described in a book that was of questionable veracity. What’s not questionable is that he was a fascist asshole. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/14 "2022-07-09T17:54:19Z")
This is true. The 1990s rumors about Hoover cross dressing were based on an unreliable source (IIRC the wife of a reputed mobster). In a fascinating twist, these rumors may have their origin in a disinformation campaign conducted by the Soviets. Going back to the 1960s, an arm of the KGB known as “Service A” sent letters to American newspapers claiming Hoover was gay, and a cross dresser, the long-term goal being to exacerbate U.S political and racial divisions. Such antics didn’t start in 2016. Source: “In Deep”, by American author and journalist David Rohde, 2020. Assuming Rohde’s account is accurate, it would seem to further weaken any claims about Hoover’s cross dressing. As to the truth about Hoover, as stated upthread, no one knows about his sexuality or gender ID. But there is no doubt that he was a racist, authoritarian asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/15 "2022-07-09T17:54:34Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Hoover had files on everybody, friends and foe alike. Including [George Carlin](https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2015/aug/13/george-carlins-fbi-file/). ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2022, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/16 "2022-07-09T18:11:01Z")
I don’t get Carlin’s joke that is mentioned more than once. He said: > [@](#): > > “‘I’m J. Edgar Noover. I have just come back from a stakeout with Ramsey Clark - that is a cookout in the backyard.’“ What is the joke there? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/17 "2022-07-09T20:26:46Z")
Steak 🥩-out. Chuckle. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2022, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/18 "2022-07-09T21:58:43Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Despite enormous amounts of speculation, piles of gossipy books, and the facts of his close relationship with Clyde Tolson, there isn’t a shred of actual evidence that the two were lovers. > > So, **had** to be? No. Quite possibly were? Yes. Just intimate but platonic friends? Also yes. Saying anything else isn’t good history. You’re right that we can’t prove that they were lovers. But while there isn’t any conclusive evidence that Hoover was gay, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to speculate that he was: - As mentioned, Hoover had a very close relationship with his second in command, Clyde Tolson. They rode to work together, took vacations together, and spent holidays together, to the exclusion of other people. Even though Tolson had a stroke in the 60’s, and eventually passed retirement age, Hoover kept him on at the Bureau through the remainder of Hoover’s life. When Hoover died, Tolson inherited his estate and moved into his home. - Other than this clearly close relationship, Hoover had no other known intimate partners. He lived with his mother until he died, and was otherwise a lifetime celibate. - Hoover had a preoccupation with the sexual activities of high profile people, and devoted considerable Bureau resources to obtaining such information, discounting theories that he was asexual. (The cross dressing, meanwhile? I don’t buy it. It’s entirely just a rumor, and hasn’t been corroborated at all). ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/19 "2022-07-09T22:02:15Z")
I get the stake/steak pun, but surely there’s more to the joke than just that. Maybe he was saying that the FBI was incompetent, and that an FBI stakeout was no more useful to enforcing laws than a backyard cookout? The joke just doesn’t seem to be up to Carlin’s usual quality. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2022, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361/20 "2022-07-09T22:15:12Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > The joke just doesn’t seem to be up to Carlin’s usual quality. I think he told it better. And maybe you’re used to hearing only his best. He had shows to fill like other comics, it can’t all be his best work. This one is a small joke, a simple pun that he can make more of with other jokes, or just let it stand on it’s own as a brief chuckle. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-kept-tabs-on-mort-sahls-jokes-about-it-and-hoover-thought-sahl-was-a-sick/967361.md?page=2)