# FBI Search and Seizure at Trump's Mar-A-Lago Residence, August 8, 2022, Case Dismissed July 15, 2024 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [August 8, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329 "2022-08-08T23:18:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 136
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2701 "2022-09-08T21:03:59Z")
Breakdown with ‘Appointed By’ and shows 6: > **[United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit | Current composition of the court](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_of_Appeals_for_the_Eleventh_Circuit#Current_composition_of_the_court)** > > As of September 30, 2021\[update\]: ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2702 "2022-09-08T21:05:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Trump was president until 1/20/21. Thar we go then! 😵‍💫 ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2703 "2022-09-08T21:07:40Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Anyone have any counterarguments that might justify this decision? I think it depends on the appeal. I would imagine they will try to get a quick ruling overturning the portion of Cannon’s decision that limits the DOJ’s ability to continue its investigation. If so, and the ruling goes their way, it actually would speed up the overall timeline of the investigation. Also, I think we can assume they are not filing any charges prior to the November election. In which case I’m not sure it really matters to the overall timeline. On preview, from the WashPost article: > [@](#): > > In a separate, simultaneous court filing, prosecutors asked Cannon to stay her Sept. 5 decision on two key points: her order to temporarily halt a significant portion of the FBI investigation into the potential mishandling of classified information, and to allow a special master to review the classified material that is among the documents seized as part of a court-authorized search at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago club on Aug. 8. Cannon will likely refuse this stay, but that refusal will likely be the thrust of the appeal. Basically, “We are OK with a Special Master looking at everything _except_ the classified stuff, and we need to be able to continue to investigate while the SM reviews the potentially privileged documents”. I do think they want to challenge the rather bold claim that a former POTUS can declare any sort of executive privilege over government documents. It seems insane, and worth fighting against. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2704 "2022-09-08T21:10:18Z")
Looks like the only judges who were contested by the Democrats, during their appointment, were Britt Grant and Andrew Brasher (with a little snubbing thrown at Mr. Luck). ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2705 "2022-09-08T21:14:30Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Basically, “We are OK with a Special Master looking at everything _except_ the classified stuff, and we need to be able to continue to investigate while the SM reviews the potentially privileged documents”. It seems real real fucked for a judge to rule that the DOJ should stop an investigation. The Trumpification of this country is staggering. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2706 "2022-09-08T21:14:57Z")
When I used to practice regularly in the Circuit Courts, we had a pretty good idea how the various Circuits - and various panels within the circuits - would come down on various issues. Same w/ Dot judges. I imagine it is either likely that DOJ expects the 11th - generally - to be sympathetic to their appeal. Or, for whatever reason they want to make a stink about this. But that isn’t the way DOJ generally rolls. They tend to be pretty conservative in their litigation choices. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2707 "2022-09-08T21:18:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Looks like the only judges who were contested by the Democrats, during their appointment, were Britt Grant and Andrew Brasher (with a little snubbing thrown at Mr. Luck). I’m certainly no prognosticator, but there have been plenty of Trump-appointed judges who have ruled against him. For Loose Cannon’s ruling to be upheld, either a non-Trump-appointed judge would have to agree with her (which seems really unlikely, given the prevailing legal sentiment), or **every single Trump-appointed judge on the appeals court** would have to agree with her. (which seems more likely, but still unlikely). ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2708 "2022-09-08T21:26:15Z")
You can read the motion to stay pending appeal here: [Motion to Stay – #69 in Trump v. United States (S.D. Fla., 9:22-cv-81294) – CourtListener.com](https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/64911367/69/trump-v-united-states/) If you’re a good law talker guy you can probably see the outline of their appeal. It sounds like they are giving Cannon one week (Sep 17) to rule on the request for a partial stay before they plead for the Circuit Court to intervene. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2709 "2022-09-08T21:28:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > For Loose Cannon’s ruling to be upheld, either a non-Trump-appointed judge would have to agree with her (which seems really unlikely, given the prevailing legal sentiment), or **every single Trump-appointed judge on the appeals court** would have to agree with her. (which seems more likely, but still unlikely). This would not generally go to the whole Circuit, just a three judge panel, chosen at random. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2710 "2022-09-08T21:31:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The whole point of Trump filing to the court was to cause delays. It seems dumb to help them achieve that when you have other options. I don’t know about that. I would expect Trump’s team to take as long as possible to submit their list of candidates for who the Special Master would be, to delay the selection as long as possible, to appeal the selection, and to write the instructions so that the SM has to read every page of every document in every box. They would draw the process out in every way possible. For the DOJ to appeal and overturn the appoint of a Special Master might get the investigation back on track much sooner. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2711 "2022-09-08T21:34:52Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I would expect Trump’s team to take as long as possible to submit their list of candidates for who the Special Master would be, to delay the selection as long as possible, to appeal the selection, and to write the instructions so that the SM has to read every page of every document in every box. They would draw the process out in every way possible. I think Trump’s legal resources are finally starting to run dry. Much as he might want to do this, it might not be feasible. And, in the grand scheme of things, this is one of the lesser battles that he’s fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2712 "2022-09-08T21:43:49Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I think Trump’s legal resources are finally starting to run dry. So much the better, from Trump’s point of view. He’ll need time to find new lawyers. We’re still waiting for him to release his taxes; to get a Special Master to complete the work would mean dragging Trump kicking and screaming every step of the way. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2713 "2022-09-08T21:44:53Z")
_Slate_ discussed the pros and cons of an appeal a couple days ago, and identified two big factors arguing for an appeal: > …There will undoubtedly be disagreements over particular documents that will then need to be referred by the special master for resolution by the judge, and those decisions could then be subject to appeal. Nobody knows how much time that review will require. And the DOJ may not be able to afford leaving this order’s precedent on the books, given its numerous analytical flaws. > If there is one aspect of the decision that summarizes why we must take exception, it is the order’s repeated statements about how special a former president is…To the contrary, in the United States, everybody should be subject to the same legal rules… If for no other reason than that, the DOJ decision on appealing the court decision should consider the foundational principle here at stake. In the United States, no one is above the law. > **[Should DOJ Appeal Judge Cannon’s Incredibly Flawed Trump Special Master Ruling?](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/09/doj-appeal-judge-cannon-trump-special-master.html)** > > The Department of Justice faces an incredibly tough call. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2714 "2022-09-08T21:58:05Z")
I imagine the big one is the Judge entertaining executive privilege applying to the documents. I think it’s legally very clear that there is no executive privilege and the DOJ needs to appeal that so executive privilege does not apply to these documents. If you don’t, and the Judge allows executive privilege, much harder to have evidence of a crime, if any. Of course, you can make it worse by appealing it and the appellate (or Sup Ct) agreeing with trial court. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2715 "2022-09-08T22:16:13Z")
This was my thought as well. A broad view of executive privilege in the hands of a biased special master could result in pretty much all of the documents being ruled inadmissible. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2716 "2022-09-08T22:41:07Z")
Another take on the Judge’s ruling by Lawfare: [Everything Wrong With Judge Cannon’s Ruling](https://www.lawfareblog.com/everything-wrong-judge-cannons-ruling) > **Error #1: The court has no jurisdiction over this matter.** > To put the matter simply, Cannon’s analysis here has turned a rule designed to offer a pre-indictment remedy for Fourth Amendment violations into a vehicle for people who have not yet even been indicted to file collateral challenges that have the capacity to prohibit the government from conducting the very investigation that would otherwise properly result in their indictment. > > **Error #2: A district court has no authority to block a criminal investigation.** > The judge has found that Trump has established a likelihood of succeeding on the merits of a claim he believes he cannot make until a special master is appointed to help him decide whether such a claim is worth bringing. > > **Error #3: The ruling is simply incoherent with respect to executive privilege.** > Her analysis of executive privilege reflects a deep ignorance of the subject. Discussing Cannon’s ruling on Twitter, Lawfare’s Jonathan Shaub—an expert on executive privilege issues—described the judge’s reasoning on the subject as expressing “a complete misunderstanding of the nature of executive privilege.” > > **Conclusion** > To put the matter simply, Judge Cannon’s opinion is wrong in almost every way it is possible for it to be wrong. How exactly the Justice Department handles the matter involves tactical and strategic considerations related to venue, the specific needs of the investigation, and the broader interests of the federal government. One way or another, however, expect the government to move decisively to erase this opinion from the books—and from the path of the FBI. In-depth, but fairly legalese. Put simply, it’s blatantly wrong. The Judge is likely incredibly ignorant/very political - which is normal stuff. Or, this feels almost feels like _baiting_ DOJ to appeal which is sinister since that would be smart and calculated. You don’t want this ruling affirmed at an appellate/sup ct level, and yet it can easily happened with the cover of “unprecedented” - it’s not, except the ex-President part. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2717 "2022-09-08T22:43:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > We know it wasn’t a mistake because he was told about the mistake, claimed he returned them all, but then kept some. All of that information (to the extent it’s public) is about documents at Mar-a-Lago. Is there any information about documents at Trump Tower or Bedford Golf Court that come within that category? Need evidence in support. > [@](#): > > We know that there were actual documents in at least some of the folders, because the contents of some of those documents have been (obliquely) reported on, and those contents are bad. “In at least some of the folders” is an admission that we don’t know if there were documents in all of the folders. Given what others have said in this thread about the ease of getting folders if you’re working in a classified area, and assuming that’s accurate, then empty folders by themselves are not proof that there were documents in them > [@](#): > > And while we don’t have enough public info to determine if the empty folders contained documents, surely this information exists. There would be an inventory of every copy made, and each copy would surely be watermarked to identify if it got out. If those are not accounted for, then they are missing. Assumes facts not in evidence. Do we know if folders for classified documents are recorded at that level of detail? Or would folders be like envelopes? In fact, wouldn’t it be better _not_ to have the information in the folder written on the outside of the folder, to reduce the chance that someone would see it? Dunno; but that is the sort of detail that needs to be included in an affidavit, to make the argument that an empty folder once held classified information, and isn’t just a souvenir for an outgoing Prez. > [@](#): > > The only problem seems to be a requirement to have someone actually have seen him handling the documents. But is that really a requirement? Police go in and investigate places all the time without having someone saying they saw something in there. That is not the only problem. The DOJ needs evidence, not just that documents are missing, but that they will be found at Trump Tower or Bedford Golf Course. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2718 "2022-09-08T23:24:56Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That is not the only problem. The DOJ needs evidence, not just that documents are missing, but that they will be found at Trump Tower or Bedford Golf Course. I think they need reasonable suspicion, not iron clad evidence. Otherwise, very few search warrants would ever be given. I don’t think they need to go before a judge and swear that they _know for a fact and certainty_ that the documents they seek will be found in the search. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2719 "2022-09-08T23:25:26Z")
Another link about asking for the judge to reconsider some things. Hopefully not redundant. > **[Justice Dept. Asks Judge to Lift Block on Trump Documents Investigation](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/08/us/politics/trump-special-master-doj.html)** > > The Justice Department asked a judge to hold off on enacting key parts of her order, including a temporary ban on its ability to use files seized from former President Donald J. Trump in its inquiry. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/2720 "2022-09-08T23:37:34Z")
I took a look at the [warrant application](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3848398-Reality-Winner-Affidavit-for-Application-of.html) for the [search the FBI did on Reality Winner](https://web.archive.org/web/20170627093354/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-08/accused-leaker-is-indicted-for-disclosing-classified-report) because it seems like the wide net cast in that case would not have been approved by a judge based on the constraints and evidence-standard you are alleging. The FBI gave evidence that Winner was likely the only employee who sent an email to The Intercept who also accessed the documents in the relevant time-frame, and used that evidence as probable cause to search _all_ of her electronic devices, her house and her car. The warrant application also stated: > [@](#): > > In my training and experience, people typically store their electronic devices and correspondence (including letters or printed emails) in their homes and transport them in their vehicles. I also know that people typically carry small electronic storage devices and communication devices, such as thumb drives and cellular phones, on their person. There is thus probable cause to believe that the intelligence reporting and evicence of correspondence between WINNER and the News Outlet, among other items of evidentiary value, may be found inside the PREMISES and the VEHICLE, as well as on storage and communication devices on WINNER’s person. They didn’t show that each specific location/item to be searched/seized had specific evidence that likely contained the evidence they were looking for; they merely showed that they had evidence that Winner was likely involved in the crime and that it was reasonable to expect that some of the evidence the FBI would need to prosecute her was in all or some of what they wanted to search. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329.md?page=135) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329.md?page=137)