# FBI Search and Seizure at Trump's Mar-A-Lago Residence, August 8, 2022, Case Dismissed July 15, 2024 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [August 8, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329 "2022-08-08T23:18:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 332
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6621 "2023-06-30T23:38:04Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I saw one article (can’t remember where) that said the Badminster recording was what tipped the prosecutors into charging him, because it undercuts the “I didn’t know” defence, which is one possible defence under the espionage act. That recording provides clear evidence of his knowledge of the rules, and is crucial to the prosecution showing _mens rea_. Found it. The Wall Street Journal reported it, but it’s paywalled. Daily Beast summarised it: > **[Trump Tape Was Turning Point for Skeptical Prosecutors in Docs Case: Report](https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-tape-was-turning-point-for-skeptical-prosecutors-in-docs-case-report)** > > The audio recording provided prosecutors with enough of a motive to pursue criminal charges, according to a new report. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6622 "2023-07-01T13:39:28Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > But there’s no way Trump can make that defense unless he takes the stand. Could the person who saw it take the stand? _“Sure, I got a good look at what Trump was waving around; it was a ’Robin’ comic book.”_ ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6623 "2023-07-01T13:47:58Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Even as he offered the description of the potential defense, his expression was one of a person trying to discreetly spit out a bad clam at a dinner party. If he could keep his mouth shut and not incriminate himself in every interview and public appearance, I’d think his best defense would be to claim the tapes are fake. With deepfakes on the rise, were I a juror in the case, I’d find it plausible to create reasonable doubt about its authenticity. But he’s undermined that potential defense already. Being his lawyer must be frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6624 "2023-07-01T17:18:55Z")
Again: It doesn’t matter what he waved around. What matters is his stated understanding of the rules for classified documents. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6625 "2023-07-01T18:23:00Z")
> [@susan](#): > > What matters is his stated understanding of the rules for classified documents Is it necessary to establish that? Is ignorance of the law a defense? Or does it instead become meaningful as a mitigating factor in sentencing? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6626 "2023-07-01T18:30:43Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Is ignorance of the law a defense? Considering that at least one of the charges has a very high bar that requires establishing that the accused knowingly and willfully violated the law for handling sensitive materials, it would absolutely be a defense. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6627 "2023-07-01T18:31:11Z")
See post above by DavidNRockies about “willful retention of documents. It’s hard to prove the “willful “ part. Unless defendant admits to it on tape. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6628 "2023-07-01T18:34:53Z")
My understanding is that the prosecution has to show that he knew he wasn’t supposed to have the documents and that they weren’t taken and kept in ignorance, that recording helps establish that. There’s a saying that ignorance of the law isn’t a valid defense, but though IANAL it has become clear to me that the law is complicated and rarely does any particular axiom apply in every situation. (One reason why lawyers are so important.) ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6629 "2023-07-01T18:38:19Z")
It seems to me that the purpose is, as mentioned above, to shut down the “I can declassify the documents with my mind” defense. I don’t think that point is considered settled law one way of the other, so if pursued, might require a decision from SCOUTS to settle. By showing that Trump knew both that documents he had not been declassified so that he was not allowed to show them to others, the indictment eliminates the need for a major decision to be made on what the law means. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6630 "2023-07-01T18:40:31Z")
He’s not charged with possession of classified documents. He’s charged with possession of documents containing national security information, which is a breach of the espionage act. By that analysis, the jedi mind trick doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6631 "2023-07-01T18:45:17Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > See post above by DavidNRockies about “willful retention of documents. It’s hard to prove the “willful “ part. Unless defendant admits to it on tape. That’s why the recording appears to have been the tipping point for the prosecutors’ decision to charge him, as outlined by the WSJ. Until they got the recording, they weren’t confident that they could prove the “wilful” part of the charge. Then they got the recording of Trump opening his big fat mouth, again, and they said, “Well, okay then.” The comparison to a Mafia boss only goes so far. By all the accounts I’ve read, Mafia bosses are smart and know that they need to keep their mouths shut. That’s why Trump has trouble getting good lawyers who will stay with him. A good lawyer will tell the client to keep his mouth shut. If the client doesn’t agree with that basic instruction, the lawyer will walk. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6632 "2023-07-01T18:50:07Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The comparison to a Mafia boss only goes so far. By all the accounts I’ve read, Mafia bosses are smart and know that they need to keep their mouths shut. I’ve heard Trump called a “wannabe” Mafia boss. He’s trying but fails at it. I think a real Mafia boss wouldn’t ever be in this situation and we wouldn’t have this thread. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6633 "2023-07-01T19:00:06Z")
I would argue that this won’t help Trump any: > **[Trump campaign advisor who allegedly saw classified map works for China...](https://news.yahoo.com/trump-campaign-advisor-allegedly-saw-182256594.html)** > > "Susie could put Trump away for years in just one minute of testimony to Jack Smith," GOP operative says. > [@](#): > > A top Donald Trump campaign aide, who sources told ABC News is one of the unauthorized people shown a classified document by the former president, also holds a top position at a lobbying firm that serves Chinese companies that could possibly pose a threat to national security and have aided in the nation’s human rights abuses. > > Susie Wiles, a campaign advisor for Trump’s 2024 bid for the presidency, is co-chair of Mercury Public Affairs, which has, in recent years, received millions of dollars from Chinese companies, including Yealink, Hikvision and Alibaba, according to The New York Post. ABC News reported late Wednesday that Wiles, who has worked several Republican campaigns including Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis’ 2018 gubernatorial run, was also singled out as one of the people to whom Trump revealed sensitive documents. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6634 "2023-07-01T19:01:49Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I’ve heard Trump called a “wannabe” Mafia boss. The Diaper Don. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6635 "2023-07-01T19:05:00Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I would argue that this won’t help Trump any: Apparently the Trump team was completely broadsided by this news. They had no idea Susie Wiles had met with Smith’s team. Several times. Based on reporting I’ve heard, she’s cooperating fully with the investigation. Not a Paul Manafort she. Trump is so cooked. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6636 "2023-07-01T19:19:18Z")
> [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > It seems to me that the purpose is, as mentioned above, to shut down the “I can declassify the documents with my mind” defense. I don’t think that point is considered settled law one way of the other, so if pursued, might require a decision from SCOUTS to settle. Actually a sitting President does have pretty broad powers in declassifying documents (atomic secrets excepted) but when he – or in reality the staffers charged with such things – decides to do so there are procedures to be followed which _include notifying the agencies involved_ so they know with certainty which documents are no longer classified. Saying, or thinking, “This copy I have in my hand is now declassified but those other ones in the State Department or Pentagon are not,” is madness. The declassification process includes an Executive Order to ensure this and get it on record. Trump, of course, did none of this. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6637 "2023-07-01T19:34:56Z")
At the end of the tape, trump calls for a round of Cokes. I’m gonna guess they all drank their Cokes dutifully, regardless of what they would rather be drinking. If trump wants a Coke, the whole world wants Cokes. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6638 "2023-07-01T19:40:44Z")
And he made them pay for them. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6639 "2023-07-01T19:51:30Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > And he made them pay for them. - How else would they get them from the vending machine? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6640 "2023-07-01T19:55:02Z")
Moderating: > [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > At the end of the tape, trump calls for a round of Cokes. I’m gonna guess they all drank their Cokes dutifully, regardless of what they would rather be drinking. If trump wants a Coke, the whole world wants Cokes. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > And he made them pay for them. > [@running\_coach](#): > > How else would they get them from the vending machine? Hijacking. @Johnny_L.A and @Son_of_a_Rich, you engage in this regularly. Warnings next time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329.md?page=331) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329.md?page=333)