# FBI Search and Seizure at Trump's Mar-A-Lago Residence, August 8, 2022, Case Dismissed July 15, 2024 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [August 8, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329 "2022-08-08T23:18:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 333
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6641 "2023-07-01T20:00:19Z")
From the Salon article linked by @DavidNRockies : > “Yes, the tape is terrible evidence against Trump, but the real story is **he is challenging to be the worst client of eternity for any criminal defense attorney because he gives real time admissions rather than keeping his mouth (Truths) shut** while his attorneys do their job,” Lieb said. “It’s almost like he wants to be convicted.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6642 "2023-07-01T20:04:43Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > requires establishing that the accused knowingly and willfully violated the law for handling sensitive materials Got it. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6643 "2023-07-01T20:04:57Z")
Relevant to the topic: who was it that was standing there to fetch cokes? Olbermann speculated that it was Walt Natua. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6644 "2023-07-01T20:12:22Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Apparently the Trump team was completely broadsided by this news. They had no idea Susie Wiles had met with Smith’s team. Several times. Based on reporting I’ve heard, she’s cooperating fully with the investigation. Not a Paul Manafort she. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there were more broadsides to come. With Smith pushing a trial back to December, he accomplishes two things: first, that there are additional months during which Trump can stew, fume, worry, and Truth things he shouldn’t; and second, that Smith and his team have a few broadsides left to disclose over a longer period of time. At any rate, Trump’s team cannot complain that the time frame is too short to craft a competent defence. I also would not be surprised if Trump took to Truth to post some remarks about Wiles and “something-something disloyalty.” ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6645 "2023-07-01T20:18:21Z")
NEVER MET HER. NOT MY TYPE. PERSON MAN WOMAN TV CAMERA. Seriously, the various prosecutors are going to have to meet to schedule press conferences to announce charges. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6646 "2023-07-01T20:21:01Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > My understanding is that the prosecution has to show that he knew he wasn’t supposed to have the documents and that they weren’t taken and kept in ignorance, that recording helps establish that. The recording would seem to be a slam-dunk on this issue, but I don’t think it’s essential. Trump was told on multiple occasions that he had to return these documents, and he went out of his way, on multiple occasions, to _not_ do that very thing. I think this alone establishes that he “wilfully” retained the documents. Just because he didn’t believe the government officials, and his own lawyers, he shouldn’t be able to avoid this charge. It’s like resisting arrest. Even if you think the charge you’re being arrested for is bogus, that doesn’t give you the right to start fighting with the cops. You’re expected to argue that issue before the courts, not with the cops on the street. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6647 "2023-07-01T20:25:03Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Trump’s team cannot complain that the time frame is too short to craft a competent defence. It is too short a time to come up with a competent defence. TBH, eternity is too short a time as well. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6648 "2023-07-01T20:25:27Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I’ve heard Trump called a “wannabe” Mafia boss. He’s trying but fails at it. > > I think a real Mafia boss wouldn’t ever be in this situation and we wouldn’t have this thread. Of course, you’d never become a Mafia boss in the first place if you couldn’t keep your mouth shut. Trump got to where he is by riding the coattails of his rich father. The Mafia seems to be a far more merit-based organization than the Trump family. ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6649 "2023-07-01T20:43:14Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > TBH, eternity is too short a time as well. There has to be a point (doesn’t there?) where the defense throws up their hands and says “We’ve got nothing.” ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6650 "2023-07-01T20:45:42Z")
That’s effectively what they did in the Jean Carroll case. No defence offered. And then they lost. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6651 "2023-07-01T20:52:30Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Trump was told on multiple occasions that he had to return these documents, and he went out of his way, on multiple occasions, to _not_ do that very thing. I think this alone establishes that he “wilfully” retained the documents. I agree but what do you think is more compelling? “The defendant was told the documents were classified and couldn’t be shared.” “The defendant **said** the documents were classified and couldn’t be shared.” ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6652 "2023-07-01T20:53:59Z")
I can’t help but wonder what Trump thought or knew about Susie Wiles’s business connections. It reminds me of this story: > **[Trump adviser says dinner with Kanye West and Nick Fuentes was a ‘f\*\*\*ing...](https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-kanye-west-nick-fuentes-mar-a-lago-b2233646.html)** > > Trump campaign in damage control mode after controversial Mar-a-Lago dinner with known white supremacist > [@](#): > > A Donald Trump adviser has reportedly described his Mar-a-Lago dinner with Kanye West and white supremacist Nick Fuentes as a “f\*\*\*ing nightmare”. > > Mr Trump has attempted to distance himself from Mr Fuentes after the controversial dinner was first reported by Axios, claiming he had no idea who the Holocaust-denying far-right extremist was. > > In several posts to Truth Social describing the Tuesday night dinner, Mr Trump said West showed up with three friends “whom I knew nothing about”. I have to simply guess that Trump’s mindset was: If they’re okay with the Secret Service, that’s good enough for me. Meaning: I can say or do anything I please around them (because they’ve been cleared). But I’d imagine that the US Secret Service uses a different standard than Jack Smith might use in evaluating the use or dissemination of National Defense Information. And I’d imagine that Smith’s team is covering this in an exhaustive fashion. We are all pretty much publicly aware, at this point, of people who are at least thought to have been shown sensitive material by Trump. I presume we don’t know them all. And that’s before we start to understand what Mar-A-Lago invitees may have gotten to see, either with or without Trump’s explicit consent. I’ve heard nothing further about the ‘evaluation of documents for touch DNA,’ but would be curious if that bore fruit. I mean … Kanye West shows up with three strangers? Nothing about that sounds particularly good. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6653 "2023-07-01T21:09:01Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I’ve heard nothing further about the ‘evaluation of documents for touch DNA,’ but would be curious if that bore fruit. Ahhhhh… I think I introduced this notion early in the thread. As the case has developed, I doubt the cost for this was justified. They appear to have everything they need from just where the evidence was found and witness testimony. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6654 "2023-07-02T04:26:01Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Considering that at least one of the charges has a very high bar that requires establishing that the accused knowingly and willfully violated the law for handling sensitive materials, it would absolutely be a defense. I think it’s an important distinction that a conviction of breaking the Espionage Act would require that he willfully retained the documents, but not necessarily that he knew that doing so was against the law. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6655 "2023-07-02T04:58:36Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Right? Wrong. As shared earlier by @DavidNRockies: > **[Willfulness and the Harm of Unlawful Retention of National Security...](https://jnslp.com/2022/12/02/willfulness-and-the-harm-of-unlawful-retention-of-national-security-information/)** > > Congress has enacted a series of prohibitions against stealing national security information and disclosing it to an unauthorized recipient ... > Critically, not just any retention of NDI is illegal. Section 793(e) only punishes a defendant who unlawfully retains NDI “willfully.” Willful retention is not accidental, negligent, or reckless. Rather, a defendant only retains NDI willfully if he or she **knows he or she possesses it _and_ knows that such possession is prohibited due to the nature of the information.** _See, e.g._ , _United States v. Hitselberger_ , 991 F. Supp.2d 101, 106-07 (D. D.C. 2013). Knowledge **is** a prerequisite to find someone guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6656 "2023-07-02T10:13:50Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > …it has become clear to me that the law is complicated and rarely does any particular axiom apply in every situation. (One reason why lawyers are so important.) It sounds like lawyers are just like physicists, it’s all about job security. They make the world so complicated so that we need them in order to understand it. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6657 "2023-07-02T19:56:05Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > They make the world so complicated so that we need them in order to understand it. To be fair, physicists don’t make the world complicated – it already is complicated by itself. You can explain things in a way so that it’s opaque or so that it can be widely understood. Run-of-the-mill physicists and teachers do the former. Great teachers and physicists do the latter. But there is a certain, irreducible level of complexity below which you can’t go. Despite the appearance of books with titles like **Quantum Physics for Babies** , you really do have to know some calculus for Schroedinger’s equation and the like, and wrap your head around some complex paradoxes to even try to understand Quantum. Most kids have to be at least five. [https://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Physics-Babies-Baby-University/dp/1492656224/ref=pd\_lpo\_sccl\_2/144-7823185-5451348?pd\_rd\_w=yhoKc&content-id=amzn1.sym.116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf\_rd\_p=116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf\_rd\_r=05FSMZE2R7BZV90P56H1&pd\_rd\_wg=FVEJc&pd\_rd\_r=c8fcb9a7-53fa-461f-b9dc-6e5abbed2c39&pd\_rd\_i=1492656224&psc=1](https://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Physics-Babies-Baby-University/dp/1492656224/ref=pd_lpo_sccl_2/144-7823185-5451348?pd_rd_w=yhoKc&content-id=amzn1.sym.116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf_rd_p=116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf_rd_r=05FSMZE2R7BZV90P56H1&pd_rd_wg=FVEJc&pd_rd_r=c8fcb9a7-53fa-461f-b9dc-6e5abbed2c39&pd_rd_i=1492656224&psc=1) I’m not a lawyer, so I can’t speak to whether they are refusing to make things simple in the name of Job Security, but I suspect that centuries of laboring to rehash definitions, clarity, and fairness might make even a purely human creation about as complex as Mother Nature does. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6658 "2023-07-02T21:04:02Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > To be fair, physicists don’t make the world complicated – it already is complicated by itself. You can explain things in a way so that it’s opaque or so that it can be widely understood. Run-of-the-mill physicists and teachers do the former. Great teachers and physicists do the latter. Probably true, but even the mediocre physicists are still trying to make it understood. > [@CalMeacham](#): > > Most kids have to be at least five. I sometimes wonder if it might be easier if we started teaching quantum mechanics from infancy. Certainly, there are some physics concepts that pre-schoolers understand better than college students, because they haven’t had a chance to learn otherwise yet (such as the fact that the image produced by a flat mirror is behind the mirror, not at its surface). ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6659 "2023-07-02T21:45:59Z")
> [@dougrb](#): > > Trump explains why he’s not going to debate anyone. “Because they might say mean things about me!” He’s got a new excuse now. Because FOX is being mean to him. Ring Of Fire (4:00) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMNNJ2dDSGA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMNNJ2dDSGA) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6660 "2023-07-03T21:28:45Z")
> **[Donald Trump's Former Press Secretary Claims She Had an Astonishing Firsthand...](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/donald-trumps-former-press-secretary-154335791.html)** > > Donald Trump should be sweating about his classified-documents indictment. > Stephanie Grisham, the former White House communications director and press secretary during his administration, claims she witnessed him showing off a few of [the top-secret papers to Mar-a-Lago guests.](https://www.sheknows.com/entertainment/articles/2784777/donald-trump-mar-a-lago-pool-flood/) > > “I watched him show documents to people at Mar-a-Lago on the dining room patio. So, he has no respect for classified information. Never did,” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329.md?page=332) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329.md?page=334)