# FBI Search and Seizure at Trump's Mar-A-Lago Residence, August 8, 2022, Case Dismissed July 15, 2024 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [August 8, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329 "2022-08-08T23:18:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 341
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6801 "2023-07-12T17:52:04Z")
I don’t think you’re crazy, but i also don’t think the trial or verdict will matter much one way or the other for the die-hard trump voter or trump himself insofar as the primaries are concerned. People who are planning to vote for him don’t care one iota what the “corrupt DOJ” says about their tangerine diety. As long as he’s not in jail (heck, maybe even if he is!) his base is on board, and no verdict will change that. People who believe that he’s guilty probably also wouldn’t change their mind if he’s found innocent by a “corrupt judge and biased jury”, so they won’t vote for him and no verdict will change that. I think the number of people who have a truly open mind and are waiting for the courts to decide his true guilt or innocence before making a decision are so vanishingly small as to be almost nonexistent. ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6802 "2023-07-12T17:53:16Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > … > With all this said, it would be…unthinkable?..to have Trump as President in total control of the classified documents he is accused of stealing. What a world. That’s the main driver to get this trial done before the election. If this had nothing to do with the election, Summer 2024 only leaves a few months of wiggle room, though. [Anyone] Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think Trump is accused of stealing any documents, classified or otherwise. I am not sure if attempts to frame the issue as “Trump was stealing classified documents” is simply sloppy reporting by the media, or an active push by MAGAts to move the case they want to try in the court of public opinion to one that has a chance of being dismissed. [The indictment](https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67490070/3/united-states-v-trump/) does not accuse either Trump or Nauta of theft. Rather, it accuses Trump of willful retention of National Defense Information (in the form of 31 documents that bore classified markings), and Obstructing Justice by withholding, concealing, and making false representations (lying) to investigators about those documents. My point is, for the matter currently under indictment, how Trump obtained the documents (theft?) is irrelevant. As is whether or not he had a right to those records (Presidential Records Act). In fact, whether or not the documents in question are (or even were) classified is only incidentally relevant in the sense that they involve National Defense Information and contain sensitive information that the Government has a interest in keeping secret from the general public. In short, the current mess Trump finds himself concerns only his refusal to comply with requests to return the documents in question and his actions to obfuscate, conceal, and deny the location, or even existence, of. Even, as he contends, he has a legal right to those documents, he could have avoided all this mess by merely working with law enforcement rather than fighting it. ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6803 "2023-07-12T18:02:07Z")
> [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think Trump is accused of stealing any documents, classified or otherwise. I think that is a distinction without a difference. He is accused of keeping things he has no right to possess and refusing to return them to their rightful owners when confronted. It’s not wrong to call that theft. I mean he didn’t sneak into the vault and shove then down the front of his pants, but he did take them without permission. But you’re right, he isn’t accused of the legal definition of theft. It’s just easier to refer to his actions as “theft” than “willful retention of National Defense Information (in the form of 31 documents that bore classified markings), and Obstructing Justice by withholding, concealing, and making false representations (lying) to investigators about those documents”. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6804 "2023-07-12T18:04:56Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > If you’re worried about the effects on the election, then demand that the trials be held as soon as possible. Stop complaining about Trump being held accountable, and start complaining about Trump doing everything he can to drag his feet and delay the trial. It is a bit rich for Trump supporters to complain about how going forward with a criminal complaint in the midst of an election could unfairly influence the results, given that Trump was probably elected due to the DOJ’s investigation of his opponent. Lock him up! ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6805 "2023-07-12T18:08:43Z")
I agree that nobody who would vote Trump over a Democrat would be swayed by any of it. I do think there might be some Republicans who would choose a different Republican over Trump, though. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6806 "2023-07-12T18:11:08Z")
You’re correct. I was using theft casually. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6807 "2023-07-12T18:16:04Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I do think there might be some Republicans who would choose a different Republican over Trump, though. Well, so long as there are some other GOP candidates polling higher than 0% for the primaries, we can assume that at least some of these people might think about changing their vote. Maybe not many, but when you look how close some states have been in the last few elections, “not many” is all it might take. I mean, Trump himself made a point of that in Georgia, with the “find me 11,780 votes” bit. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6808 "2023-07-12T20:39:27Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > I was using theft casually. The same way that Trump is called a traitor because of everything he did to harm the country, but from a legal perspective nothing he has been accused of meets the legal definition of the crime of treason. I don’t see that what Trump did with the documents would be a crime in any jurisdiction if the documents themselves weren’t so sensitive. If he had, say, a $500 bathrobe that was only supposed to be used by the POTUS and he refused to give it back, IANAL but that’s not a crime. The government would have to sue to get it back. Trump initially had legal possession of those documents as the president while in office. It’s like your neighbor let you borrow their lawn mower and you took it with you when you moved away. You didn’t steal it, but if you were a jerk about it and didn’t want to return it, they’d have to sue you and determine if it was worth it. I bet Trump does that kind of thing all the time, it sure fits his personality. Just as long as that lawn mower doesn’t have highly sensitive secrets in it that jeopardize national security. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6809 "2023-07-12T21:38:22Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > It’s like your neighbor let you borrow their lawn mower and you took it with you when you moved away. IANAL either but that sure sounds like theft to me. If they asked me to return it and I didn’t, why couldn’t they press charges? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6810 "2023-07-12T21:47:04Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > IANAL either but that sure sounds like theft to me. Just Google and ask what to do if someone won’t return something they borrowed. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6811 "2023-07-12T21:50:41Z")
According to Bard (bolding mine): 1. Talk to the person directly. 2. Send a written request. 3. Ask a mutual friend or family member to intervene. 4. **File a police report.** 5. Sue the person in small claims court. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6812 "2023-07-12T22:01:29Z")
I was tempted to not respond to anything, since [MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin) nailed my reasoning a few posts up, and now I’m responding twice. I was just using “stealing” (or theft) as shorthand for a long-winded espionage crime that goes by another name but entails similar conduct. With all that said, I do think theft/stealing is an appropriate casual word to use (but not technically accurate as the legal crime). He took something that did not belong to him. The espionage act does criminalize “taking” sensitive documents. Taking documents that you’re not allowed to have is stealing by another name. Trump did that, the indictment says he did it, he just wasn’t charged with that specific espionage “taking” crime. We don’t know why he wasn’t charged with that crime. He was only charged with _retaining_ the docs he took - a different espionage act crime. The indictment also says he told other people about the sensitive info, yet another and different espionage act crime, but again, he was not charged with that crime. We don’t know why not. As to your examples, I agree with them in spirit. Maybe they are technically a petty theft type crime, but I personally wouldn’t casually refer that type of conduct as stealing or theft. I don’t think they are analogous to Trump’s conduct, though. \*If I’ve misunderstood your point, I’m just going to let this be. I intentionally dumb things down (like using stealing to refer to Trump’s conduct in this matter) for clarity. I find you have to forsake accuracy to get clarity; or definitely I’m just not smart enough to do both. I’m fine with that, and fine with being corrected on it, as long as it’s not central to my main point which here I believe was about…the trial date. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6813 "2023-07-12T22:02:06Z")
Multiple sources say that you can’t file a police report but this is turning into a huge hijack I did **not** intend at all. (Referring to @Akaj) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6814 "2023-07-12T22:14:02Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > I intentionally dumb things down (like using stealing to refer to Trump’s conduct in this matter) for clarity. I find you have to forsake accuracy to get clarity; or definitely I’m just not smart enough to do both. I’m fine with that, and fine with being corrected on it, as long as it’s not central to my main point which here I believe was about…the trial date. I agree with you. I wonder how weird it would be if Trump’s lawyers do all they can to delay the trial and then when it starts it gets done in a couple of weeks. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6815 "2023-07-12T23:42:57Z")
After the attempted coup and insurrection on 1/6, I had a meeting. The grand boss said “I’ll see you tomorrow, unless we are in a civil war”. Trump should have been imprisoned on 1/7. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6816 "2023-07-12T23:48:01Z")
Moderating: (Gentle reminder) > [@enipla](#): > > Trump should have been imprisoned on 1/7. You’re in the Mar-A-Lago Documents proceeding thread, not one of the January 6th threads. As such, this is a hijack. I’m really trying to keep these events from crossing over. Else we’ll never be able to keep people’s comments straight. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2023, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6817 "2023-07-13T03:21:57Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I don’t see that what Trump did with the documents would be a crime in any jurisdiction if the documents themselves weren’t so sensitive. If he had, say, a $500 bathrobe that was only supposed to be used by the POTUS and he refused to give it back, IANAL but that’s not a crime. The government would have to sue to get it back. Trump initially had legal possession of those documents as the president while in office. It depends on the criminal law of a particular jurisdiction, but what you’re describing is “theft by conversion” in some jurisdictions. Dunno if there is a US federal offence of “theft by conversion”. > **[Theft by Conversion Law](https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/theft-by-conversion.html)** > > Theft by conversion occurs when a person lawfully obtains possession to the personal property or funds of another, and then converts the property into funds for their own use and without the person?s permission. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2023, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6818 "2023-07-13T03:32:48Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > The same way that Trump is called a traitor because of everything he did to harm the country, but from a legal perspective nothing he has been accused of meets the legal definition of the crime of treason. It doesn’t meet the Constitutional definition of “treason,” but can’t we still call him a traitor? The words both start with “tr,” but aren’t they different words? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2023, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6819 "2023-07-13T03:57:46Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > can’t we still call him a traitor? The words both start with “tr,” but aren’t they different words? Yes. Yes, we can. Because he is. ---
**Author:** ![ColdBrew50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@ColdBrew50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdBrew50)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2023, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/6820 "2023-07-13T05:50:18Z")
This seems to be on topic, considering many of the above non-mod-noted comments above. Can someone please explain to me why exactly a private company, like the GOP or the Dems, should be accorded special treatment? This seems to me de facto, and not de iure supposition, that has no place in whatserjudge’s court. Nor any court. Where is the case law or even common law basis for favoring some random party over the Church of Coltrane’s candidate, or whatever? Why is this a problem, and why is this a discussion? Where’s the engrained decision favoring some party like the GOP over the many others? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329.md?page=340) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329.md?page=342)