# FBI Search and Seizure at Trump's Mar-A-Lago Residence, August 8, 2022, Case Dismissed July 15, 2024 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [August 8, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329 "2022-08-08T23:18:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 389
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7784 "2024-03-11T21:19:18Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > > dismiss classified docs counts 1-32 on unconstitutional vagueness Have they explained why there’s anything “vague” about these charges? They seem quite straightforward to me. Even if the judge were looking to toss the case, I can’t believe she’d hang her hat on this one. This case is the most straightforward of all the cases against him. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7785 "2024-03-11T21:38:31Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Have they explained why there’s anything “vague” about these charges? They seem quite straightforward to me. IANAL, but I assume that the PRA is ‘vague’ as to what constitutes ‘personal records’. Or something. Since Trump claims that the classified materials are ‘personal records’, they belong to him; and since the PRA is (they say) ‘vague’, then there the case can be dismissed on those grounds. Or something. As a lay person, the wording of the PRA seems unambiguous. As someone who has worked in highly-classified environments, the status of the stolen documents is unambiguous. > [@Horatius](#): > > I can’t believe she’d hang her hat on this one. Cannon’s previous rulings have been clearly designed to benefit Trump, who appointed her. I can only guess why she might ‘hang her hat’ on this one. We’ve seen other Trump enablers take falls for Himself. Cannon just may be _that_ loyal. i.e., her personal loyalty to her benefactor is greater than her loyalty to the Constitution. Or perhaps she believes Trump will be the 47th POTUS. In that case she may be looking for some sort of reward for her loyalty, or hoping to avoid retribution if she gives her loyalty to the United States. Complete speculation on my part, but very strange things have happened in this country since 2017. ---
**Author:** ![Jihi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jihi/32/17768_2.png) [@Jihi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jihi)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7786 "2024-03-11T21:59:53Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Cannon just may be _that_ loyal. i.e., her personal loyalty to her benefactor is greater than her loyalty to the Constitution. She certainly seems to care more about Trump’s opinion than she does the opinions of her own colleagues in the field of law. As a layman watching the situation play out, I do have to say it’s somewhat baffling to me that Cannon hasn’t been somehow held to account more than what she has for what to me at least, (again I am a layman), have been some pretty blatantly biased decision making. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7787 "2024-03-11T22:15:56Z")
> [@Jihi](#): > > it’s somewhat baffling to me that Cannon hasn’t been somehow held to account more than what she has Mechanisms for doing this are limited. That’s by design, intended to preserve judicial independence. Extreme and egregious abuses can be curtailed but political will is a prerequisite. That’s what’s lacking and it’s why Cannon is free to run roughshod over normal jurisprudence. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7788 "2024-03-11T23:48:14Z")
These are just hearings. Probably another Judge would not need a hearing, but having one doesn’t mean you’re ruling for Defendant. It’s likely just a plausible way to delay a bit. Waste a couple weeks, deny the (random) motions to dismiss. The PRA motion has no basis, but might afford Cannon the “best” opportunity to delay with allowing evidentiary hearings. The vagueness motion is about the Espionage Act. Trump says it’s vaguely written. Prior decisions have held it’s not vague. However, you can tie a very sliver of thread (by abusing Jacks reasoning) to the word “authorized” and NDI in the espionage act and back to the PRA…kinda. Maybe that’s why these two. But again, it’s just delay. Not merits. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2024, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7789 "2024-03-13T12:24:26Z")
The generous interpretation is that Cannon, as a very inexperienced judge with _no_ prior experience with CIPA and the other intricacies of dealing with classified or sensitive documents in a trial, is leaning on the various briefings and hearings to help inform her decisions. Although, she seems quite loath to actually make any decisions. Again, being generous one could say that she’s just being overly cautious. We all know what the less-generous interpretations of her actions are. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7790 "2024-03-14T22:07:16Z")
Trump’s Motion to Dismiss for Vagueness is denied. Still waiting on PRA ruling. Probably tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2024, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7791 "2024-03-14T23:15:58Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Trump’s Motion to Dismiss for Vagueness is denied. > **[Trump legal news brief: Judge Cannon denies Trump’s ‘vagueness’ motion to...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-legal-news-brief-judge-cannon-denies-trumps-vagueness-motion-to-dismiss-classified-documents-case-221009238.html)** > > Judge Aileen Cannon denies a motion by former President Donald Trump to dismiss the classified documents case against him on the grounds that the Espionage Act contains “unconstitutional vagueness.” ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7792 "2024-03-15T00:49:11Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Trump’s Motion to Dismiss for Vagueness is denied. _without prejudice_. They can raise the issue again. And she still has, what, 5 more defense motions to conduct hearings on? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7793 "2024-03-15T00:52:27Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > _without prejudice_. They can raise the issue again. And claiming it was “premature.” Any findings to support this idiotic conclusion? (It’s a rhetorical question.) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7794 "2024-03-15T01:22:41Z")
Wait, does saying it was”premature” inherently mean that she thought it had merit? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7795 "2024-03-15T01:28:43Z")
No, but it sort of implies to Trump’s public that it might, and the goal was to give Trump another bite at the apple of DELAY and – bonus! – insert doubt into the legitimacy of the prosecution. It was not to rule on the merits. In fact, most judges would have ruled on these motions without even holding a hearing. The law is that clear on these 2 motions she’s “mulling.” It’s my belief that she’s a total tool. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7796 "2024-03-15T01:38:05Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > And she still has, what, 5 more defense motions to conduct hearings on? More than 5. She has a shadow docket with a couple non-public motions filed. ---
**Author:** ![Jihi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jihi/32/17768_2.png) [@Jihi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jihi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7797 "2024-03-15T01:42:25Z")
So Cannon, essentially, is collecting b\*\*\*\*\*\*\* and baseless motions in order to conduct hearings that actually don’t have anything to do with the classified documents or any of the matters at hand? Just to assist Trump with further delays? Am I being overly cynical? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7798 "2024-03-15T01:47:53Z")
No, I think that’s about right. She’s doing all she can while not being so over the top as to ensure her removal from the case. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7799 "2024-03-15T01:58:11Z")
It utterly galls me, because the sort of garbage Cannon promulgates undermines the entire justice system. So many others are trying hard to carry forward the torch of impartial justice without fear or favor, but they are equally tarnished by her partisan antics. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7800 "2024-03-15T12:03:07Z")
If you want to lose sleep tonight, think about her granting a motion to dismiss in mid October. An October surprise in reverse. ---
**Author:** ![Jihi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jihi/32/17768_2.png) [@Jihi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jihi)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7801 "2024-03-16T05:34:25Z")
Thanks for the nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7802 "2024-03-19T01:24:14Z")
Judge Cannon ordered….something re the PRA motion - an order to draft some hypothetical jury instructions. No one can figure out what or why. “[T]he parties must engage with the following competing scenarios & offer alternative draft text that assumes each scenario to be a correct formulation of the law to be issued to the jury…” [the scenarios then butcher the law] Here’s the [Order.](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.648652/gov.uscourts.flsd.648652.407.0.pdf) You could easily help Trump a lot cleaner and more plausibly. She wants to, but I’m not sure she knows how to do that. I don’t understand what this order means. Maybe it’s brilliant by Cannon. It’s hard to respond to nonsense. Especially procedurally - what do you do? ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329/7803 "2024-03-19T03:35:26Z")
Gift link: > **[Cannon tells lawyers to weigh if Trump conduct can’t be reviewed by courts](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/18/trump-judge-cannon-jury-instructions-pra/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzEwNzM0NDAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzEyMTE2Nzk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MTA3MzQ0MDAsImp0aSI6ImIxZDYwNzJkLWU4YmYtNDhjNS04MzkxLTdkYmIzZmNlODBkOCIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS9uYXRpb25hbC1zZWN1cml0eS8yMDI0LzAzLzE4L3RydW1wLWp1ZGdlLWNhbm5vbi1qdXJ5LWluc3RydWN0aW9ucy1wcmEvIn0.PQsG3mqgYMp5ifk5BWjYzuFr5alVXl6FEZZAI8bugEU&itid=gfta)** > > In Donald Trump’s classified documents case, Judge Aileen Cannon’s order about jury instructions seems to take precedence over numerous other pretrial issues. > Cannon asked the prosecutors and defense attorneys to consider two different hypothetical situations…“the parties must engage with the following competing scenarios and offer alternative draft text that **_assumes each scenario to be a correct formulation of the law_.** ” > (Bolding mine) > In the first scenario, Cannon said, the jury would be allowed to review a former president’s possession of a record and make a factual finding whether “it is personal or presidential using the definitions set forth in the Presidential Records Act,” also known as the PRA. > The second scenario Cannon describes is one in which a president “has sole authority under the PRA to categorize records as personal or presidential during his/her presidency. Neither a court nor a jury is permitted to make or review such a categorization decision.” Why is she worried about jury instructions _right now_? She hasn’t set a trial date. She hasn’t ruled on a whole host of outstanding motions. Why should the defense and prosecutors be given the homework of giving “for and against” drafts for her frankly wazoo scenarios? Scenario one, should we let the jury read all of the classified documents and decide whether they’re personal or presidential? I mean, why bother following established law and precedent, amiright? Scenario two, should we even be involved, or is the president just allowed to do whatever he wants to? He’s the president, fercryinoutloud! Will this FINALLY be the straw that breaks Jack’s back? Can we _please_ demand a competent judge now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329.md?page=388) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fbi-search-and-seizure-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-residence-august-8-2022-case-dismissed-july-15-2024/969329.md?page=390)