# FCC Repeals Net Neutrality Rule **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522 "2017-12-14T18:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/281 "2017-12-16T08:03:49Z")
Splitting up the same posting into two separate quotes… > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Bold and large font always makes the argument better. :smack: I figured it was worth a try - I might get a straight answer, rather than your continued diversion. Somehow, I’m not surprised. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > How did enacting Net Neutrality (2 1/2 years ago) make the internet better for the American people as a whole? Prevented the spread of abuses that were beginning even in those earlier days. > [@](#): > > Here is a brief timeline (an updated version of the FP list) of only some of those violations that made it to the headlines at the time and helped net neutrality advocates make their argument in favor of the stricter control over internet providers and to classify the internet as a utility. > > 2005 – North Carolina ISP Madison River Communications blocked VoIP service Vonage. > > 2005 – Comcast blocked or severely delayed traffic using the BitTorrent file-sharing protocol. (The company even had the guts to deny this for months until evidence was presented by the Associated Press.) > > 2007 – AT&T censored Pearl Jam because lead singer criticized President Bush. > > 2007 to 2009 – AT&T forced Apple to block Skype because it didn’t like the competition. At the time, the carrier had exclusive rights to sell the iPhone and even then the net neutrality advocates were pushing the government to protect online consumers, over 5 years before these rules were actually passed. > > 2009 – Google Voice app faced similar issues from ISPs, including AT&T on iPhone. > > 2010 – Windstream Communications, a DSL provider, started hijacking search results made using Google toolbar. It consistently redirected users to Windstream’s own search engine and results. > > 2011 – MetroPCS, one of the top-five wireless carriers at the time, announced plans to block streaming services over its 4G network from everyone except YouTube. > > 2011 to 2013 – AT&T, T-Mobile and Verizon blocked Google Wallet in favor of Isis, a mobile payment system in which all three had shares. Verizon even asked Google to not include its payment app in its Nexus devices. > > 2012 – AT&T blocked FaceTime; again because the company didn’t like the competition. > > 2012 – Verizon started blocking people from using tethering apps on their phones that enabled consumers to avoid the company’s $20 tethering fee. > > 2014 – AT&T announced a new “sponsored data” scheme, offering content creators a way to buy their way around the data caps that AT&T imposes on its subscribers. > > 2014 – Netflix started paying Verizon and Comcast to “improve streaming service for consumers.” > > 2014 – T-Mobile was accused of using data caps to manipulate online competition. [From here.](https://wccftech.com/net-neutrality-abuses-timeline/) Which I suppose you’ve seen, and ignored, before. Also note that even fewer companies are offering broadband now, allowing even one malefactor to affect more people, who will have little or no recourse. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/282 "2017-12-16T08:05:24Z")
So, **D’anconia** , I’ve answered your question. Will you answer mine, or continue to evade? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/283 "2017-12-16T08:16:28Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Seriously? > > Net Neutrality is central planning? Are you serious? A spectre is haunting the internet, the spectre of COMMUNISM? Beats Freemasons. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/284 "2017-12-16T09:04:15Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No. **mhendo** made the claim that he “needs” the internet, and then went on to say that millions of Americans are similarly situated. > > I would like a cite for _that_. > **[One in Four Americans Make Money from the Online Economy](https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/making-money-from-online-economy-uber-lyft-pew-research-center/3607478.html)** > > The Pew Research Center set out to find how many Americans make money from their online devices. The center found about one in four Americans earned money from the "gig economy.” Some said it allows them to work when they want to, but others say... Secondary source re: a Pew Research study. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/285 "2017-12-16T12:39:22Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Need vs. want is subjective, of course, so it cannot be proven. So then why did you even introduce this stupid distinction into the argument in the first place? > [@](#): > > IMHO, watching tv, listening to radio, and gaming (to use examples from this thread) are wants not needs. Employment, educational, and medical access have already been mentioned in this thread as being increasingly dependent upon ready internet access. But do tell us - by your standards, what set of desires for a purported average American in 2017 fall under the category of “needs” and what set under “wants”? Be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/286 "2017-12-16T13:31:48Z")
Needs: Bread Brondo Fox News Tax cuts Wants: Clean water Health care Education beyond the 5th grade Voting rights ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/287 "2017-12-16T13:41:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Needs: > … > Brondo I _object!_ I object to Brondo bein’ a need, cuz it’s what plants _crave!_ Tha’s _totally_ different so I _object!_ Yeah! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/288 "2017-12-16T14:07:44Z")
I want to poke my head in and agree with the poster above that I would be fine with no net neutrality rules if the ISPs monopolies/duopolies were broken up. Back in the stone ages, when people had land lines, the phone companies were forced to allow anyone to use their network for long distance calls. That led to some real competition, with MCI, Sprint, and others becoming competitors to AT&T and the Baby Bells. So, if I could pick and choose my ISP, while keeping my FIOS connection, I’d probably be fine with removing net neutrality. I’d try and choose an ISP that has no interest in throttling and blocking since they have no competing business to YouTube, Netflix, or the news networks. And, to the question above about whether an internet connection is a need or a want, all I know is that my kids have had to get their homework and submit it online for years. I honestly don’t know what kids do without a connection – my guess is that everyone with kids in my town has a connection. Otherwise, the library is available, but that would require a fair amount of advance planning (they have tons of homework) or using a friend’s connection, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/289 "2017-12-16T15:00:04Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > And I just had a phone book dropped off on my doorstep literally yesterday. :shrugs: Really? I used to be in the industry, my families business responsible for delivering 10% of the telephone directories published in the US, about 50 million directories (out of 500m). Nowadays, the directory print market is about 20% of the size when our business was at its peak (2006). Most of them are printed for the rural market and are printed by one of three publishers: **Hibu** , AKA “Yellow Book USA”. Even though they remain one of the three largest publishers in the US, one can’t even tell this from their website: [www.hibu.com](http://www.hibu.com) **Names & Numbers**. Rumor has it they will cease their directory operations within 3 years. This year alone they cut their production schedule by up to 30%. **Dex Media** , AKA “Idearc”, AKA “Supermedia”. 6 bankruptcies in 9 years will do that to a name. Currently the largest publisher of print directories, they bought the entire portfolio of ATT-branded books in 2016… and promptly closed 30% of them. I know the CEO, Joe Walsh, a bit and Joe (who used to be CEO of Yellow Book, see above) loves, loves, loves to use debt to build empires. … and that’s it. There will be smaller publishers, I think **Frontier Communications** has a directory division, there is **Valley Publishers** in CA, but the market is, essentially, dead for large and medium-sized cities. The PSC’s of the various States no longer require directories to be published, which also exerted downward pressures on the market. Anyway… my point of all this is simple: Cite? Please, take a picture of the book you received “literally yesterday” and send it to me via PM. Because I know there aren’t _that_ many books being physically delivered in December any more via D2D delivery and I’m curious as to who it can be. Dex has their Southern Illinois books, Valley delivers some titles in December, and N&N has 2 books being delivered in MO right now. As an industry expert (though no longer in the industry, Thank God), I _am_ curious. And doubtful. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/290 "2017-12-16T15:23:36Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I want to poke my head in and agree with the poster above that I would be fine with no net neutrality rules if the ISPs monopolies/duopolies were broken up. Back in the stone ages, when people had land lines, the phone companies were forced to allow anyone to use their network for long distance calls. That led to some real competition, with MCI, Sprint, and others becoming competitors to AT&T and the Baby Bells. So, if I could pick and choose my ISP, while keeping my FIOS connection, I’d probably be fine with removing net neutrality. I’d try and choose an ISP that has no interest in throttling and blocking since they have no competing business to YouTube, Netflix, or the news networks. I would say not even then, because for one thing even in an imaginary competitive ISP environment, there are upstream bandwidth providers where abuses can happen that the ISPs themselves have no control over. A typical traceroute shows the packet transiting at least a handful of different networks, all of them with the potential for altering their behavior based on header or deep-packet inspection. And for another thing, where there are a limited number of competitive choices collusion among them is almost inevitable, and as I showed in post #31 it’s already been happening – and there are lots of other examples. But most importantly, in the real world the prevalence of broadband Internet has tended to inextricably tie the ISP to the infrastructure operators, whether they are one and the same or whether they’re resellers who nevertheless rely on the same network and may therefore be subject to the same abuses. In the old days of dialup, anyone and his dog could become an ISP just by buying a rack of modems and leasing a T1 line, and the market was flooded by a multitude of small operators. > [@RitterSport](#): > > And, to the question above about whether an internet connection is a need or a want, all I know is that my kids have had to get their homework and submit it online for years. I honestly don’t know what kids do without a connection – my guess is that everyone with kids in my town has a connection. Otherwise, the library is available, but that would require a fair amount of advance planning (they have tons of homework) or using a friend’s connection, I guess. As someone already pointed out, the UN declared access to the Internet to be a fundamental human right. Individual countries have done the same. In Canada, for instance, the communications regulatory body, the CRTC, declared the Internet an essential service. This had a couple of important implications. One, it put regulation of the Internet on the same footing as the regulation of other common carriers, essentially enshrining the principles of net neutrality. Two, it formed the basis for policies to expand broadband services to remote and rural areas where the much-vaunted free market would never do it because it wouldn’t be profitable. To that end, the federal government is providing funding and requiring broadband ISPs to contribute to a common funding pool. Of course the right-wingers here would be adamantly against any of those things. But the reality is that ISPs are common carriers providing an essential public communications service and must be treated that way. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/291 "2017-12-16T15:40:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As usual in the hive mind SDMB, I notice that I am the one that’s supposed to concede these kinds of points. If no one cares, then I assume no one would bring up a rebuttal, and I certainly would continue to argue it without any responses. But I’m responding to posts others make; why should I be the one to abandon the point, especially whne i am the one in the right? Because what you are saying is not right in a meaningful way. Madison River was blocking the specific ports that were being used for VOIP. A port is not a physical thing. It is an abstract concept, kind of like a routing number. One computer tags the data it sends with a port number, and the other computer that receives the data uses the port number to figure out what process should handle the packet. VOIP may use ports in the 1700s range and in the 5000s range. http (websites) use ports 80, 8008 or 8080. So the fact that you can use the Vonage website is no indication that you can use the service they offer. Which means that your correctness on this niggling point is absolutely worthless. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/292 "2017-12-16T16:15:49Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > And I just had a phone book dropped off on my doorstep literally yesterday. :shrugs: I’m really curious to know how that works in the second decade of the 21st century. Was it dropped off by a guy with a horse and cart? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/293 "2017-12-16T16:20:00Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > …As an industry expert (though no longer in the industry, Thank God), I _am_ curious. And doubtful. Different time zone. Roughly, 1958. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/294 "2017-12-16T16:22:56Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I’m really curious to know how that works in the second decade of the 21st century. > > Was it dropped off by a guy with a horse and cart? It was very likely: 1. Delivered by a broke Hispanic crew of dubious legality using a hollowed-out van, or 2. Delivered by someone really desperate for money not understanding that the act of delivering books likely costs them as much as they earn, especially if they are using a sedan, or 3. The USPS. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/295 "2017-12-16T16:44:36Z")
For awhile the internet was an interesting outlet for dissident views you wouldn’t find in corporate media, but it wasn’t realistic to expect them not to come after it eventually. They tried under Obama and failed, but they’re persistent buggers. The craziest part was how they openly mocked the populace with that dumb meme video. > [@Lemur866](#): > > A spectre is haunting the internet, the spectre of COMMUNISM? Tired: Using anti-trust laws to break up monopolies Wired: Nationalizing Google > [@elucidator](#): > > (Passed along by a friend, who got it at some site called _Daily Cause_…_Daily Cost_?..something like that…) You’ve been around the block, how could you actually think Dems would fix any of this? Or would even want to. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/296 "2017-12-16T19:26:07Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No. **mhendo** made the claim that he “needs” the internet, and then went on to say that millions of Americans are similarly situated. > > I would like a cite for _that_. Well, here’s your thought on the internet…_streaming movies_ > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Water and heat are necessities, streaming movies is not. That’s like saying, cars are not a necessities in modern life, by saying that driving to the cinema is not as important as water and heat :smack: Without the internet, I can NOT do my work - so it’s pretty much essential to me. However you actually seem think, that the internet is only for _streaming movies_, which is what some people do, but it’s by far not the main aspect of the internet usage. There are way more things that the internet is used for, here’s a list of just a few things you can do on or with the internet: - Education (like [Open University](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_University)) some University require you to watch/follow their lessons online - CCTV operation - Traffic Control - Information (like this Forum, Wiki, etc.) - Phone calls (Voip) - Contact with the outside world for disabled people - Communication (Video conferencing with multiple locations around the globe) - Security Alarm monitoring - Banking - Paying your bills - Remote Surgery - Email - Research - Data Storage (Cloud computing) - Remote IT services (TeamViewer, Off-site managment) - Job Search - Job Application - Job Interviews - Booking of Hotels, Plane ticket, Rental Car, etc. - Shopping & Selling - Food shopping …just to name a few thing, besides _streaming movies_ Can all these thing be done in some shape or form without the internet? Sure, but by that thinking, we don’t “need” cars, electricity, planes, clothes & houses. But I don’t like to sleep in caves and hunt for my next meal. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/297 "2017-12-16T19:35:32Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > What does the school district do to accommodate low-income families that cannot afford it? Just Google the answer - Ups! Sorry, Google is blocked with your ISP, since they have their own search engine, they want you to use :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/298 "2017-12-16T21:56:56Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Bold and large font always makes the argument better. :smack: > > How did enacting Net Neutrality (2 1/2 years ago) make the internet better for the American people as a whole? Dude, you do realize that Net Neutrality wasn’t enacted 2 and half years ago, right? This is a right wing talking point I’ve seen over and over again, and it’s fucking laughable, because it’s so blatantly incorrect, as has been pointed out over and over again in this thread and many other places. Bottom line, it doesn’t matter for people like D’Anconia or Bricker if customers have worse service that costs more. The free market process is the important part, not the result. If the free market results in a monopoly that charges outrageous prices for shitty service it doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/299 "2017-12-16T23:38:46Z")
It’s because they figure the monopoly won’t affect them. They can afford to pay a little more, and it won’t be views they agree with that’ll be subject to executive censorship, so why should they care? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522/300 "2017-12-17T01:19:59Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Bottom line, it doesn’t matter for people like D’Anconia or Bricker if customers have worse service that costs more. The free market process is the important part, not the result. If the free market results in a monopoly that charges outrageous prices for shitty service it doesn’t matter. Bingo…Free market fundamentalism is a religion. It is not based on any science, evidence, or logic. Free markets are by definition better and if there is any problem with the market, it is really simply because it is not free enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fcc-repeals-net-neutrality-rule/804522.md?page=16)