# FDA and Raw milk **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 14, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944 "2016-09-14T17:17:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/41 "2017-03-10T01:37:32Z")
Well, in a country where you can buy beer, guns and tobacco, that durn gummint is raising alarums about raw milk again. So what if people die from eating raw milk cheese? We have our rights, and no one makes a fuss in France. > **[Cheese Linked To Deadly Listeria Outbreak Sold At Whole Foods In Fairfield](https://dailyvoice.com/connecticut/wilton/news/cheese-linked-to-deadly-listeria-outbreak-sold-at-whole-foods-in-fairfield/702917/?utm_source=breaking-email-news-alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking-wilton-13422)** > > FAIRFIELD, Conn. — A soft cheese linked to a deadly multi-state outbreak of listeria was sold at the Whole Foods in Fairfield, and one death has been reported in Connecticut, according to the state Department of Public Health. The DPH anno… ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/42 "2017-03-10T03:25:08Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Well, in a country where you can buy beer, guns and tobacco, that durn gummint is raising alarums about raw milk again. > > So what if people die from eating raw milk cheese? We have our rights, and no one makes a fuss in France. > > [Cheese Linked To Deadly Listeria Outbreak Sold At Whole Foods In Fairfield | Wilton Daily Voice](http://wilton.dailyvoice.com/news/cheese-linked-to-deadly-listeria-outbreak-sold-at-whole-foods-in-fairfield/702917/?utm_source=breaking-email-news-alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking-wilton-13422) Except the cheese was sold across state lines so it has to have been in compliance with FDA standards. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/43 "2017-03-10T05:20:30Z")
Except it wasn’t, because people got sick and died after eating it. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/44 "2017-03-10T12:09:56Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > It seems crazy to me that in a country where I can buy a beer, a gun, tobacco, and countless useless food supplements that the FDA feels that the line in the sand that cannot be crossed is drinking raw milk. > > Raw milk has improved flavor and culinary uses and the pasteurization process destroys vitamins and enzymes which are beneficial. In many places however it would be easier to buy marijuana than raw milk. Why do we give them this control over our food choices? Because the uninformed and the obstinate idiots give it to their innocent children, who get sick and sometimes go on to have chronic health issues as a result. Perhaps we should simply make it illegal to give raw milk to children just as we do beer, guns, and tobacco. I’d be okay with that, actually. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/45 "2017-03-10T14:31:22Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Because the uninformed and the obstinate idiots give it to their innocent children, who get sick and sometimes go on to have chronic health issues as a result. > > Perhaps we should simply make it illegal to give raw milk to children just as we do beer, guns, and tobacco. I’d be okay with that, actually. And rob an infant of the existential delight that comes from savoring artisanal, hand-crafted raw-milk cheeses?! With what then shall they dip into their ketchup? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/46 "2017-03-10T15:15:53Z")
I’ve had raw milk. It’s legal in many states if you buy it directly from the farmer, and a few states allow retailers to resell it. I bought it in the first type of state, and had to sign a waiver and give them contact information in case there was an outbreak of something. I bought some from a spotless dairy, and it was fabulous, especially the creamy part on top. I bought some from a clean, but less spotless, dairy, that honestly wasn’t very different from good pasteurized milk. The milk from the first dairy seemed worth the risk, and I’ve been back when I was in that neck of the woods. I haven’t been back to the other dairy. Back in the bad old days there was a lot of TB and other nasty stuff transmitted by raw milk. I’m okay with regulating it enough that it’s not the standard, and that you need to jump through a few hoops to buy or sell it. I agree that totally outlawing raw milk seems like overkill, though. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/47 "2017-03-10T15:33:17Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > And rob an infant of the existential delight that comes from savoring artisanal, hand-crafted raw-milk cheeses?! And also the challenge of testing their nascent immune system? Darwin would not approve of such coddling. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/48 "2017-03-10T16:24:58Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Except it wasn’t, because people got sick and died after eating it. We don’t know if the cheese in question was produced in accordance with FDA regulations, but it may have been. Unlike raw fresh milk, the FDA does allow the interstate sale of certain types of raw-milk cheese provided that they are aged for at least 60 days at a specified temperature. The aging process reduces, but does not completely eliminate, the risk of pathogenic bacteria. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/49 "2017-03-10T16:55:21Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Serious question: > Would you drink irradiated milk? Without hesitation. I also like irradiated eggs. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m pretty okay with that. I totally believe that raw milk tastes different, and that some people prefer that taste, and I’m okay with people taking that risk. … > [@Jackmannii](#): > > … I am typically OK with adults having the right to be stupid, but not when it involves standards for commercially sold food products, especially those that are likely to be consumed by children and often accompanied by phony health claims. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Because the uninformed and the obstinate idiots give it to their innocent children, who get sick and sometimes go on to have chronic health issues as a result. … And that’s really the point. As a society we value the right of individuals to be stupid and do things that can harm themselves to a fairly significant albeit not absolute degree. No question it is not consistently applied based on the power of various lobbies. But in general we have less tolerance for people to be stupid in ways that put their children and others’ children at significant risk. Yes as much as it gets mocked someone _does_ “think of the children” and thus we have regulations limiting parental freedom to be stupid when it puts their (and possibly others’) kids at significant risk. Given both that milk as a product is often, even preferentially, consumed by children and that raw milk promotors often specifically and explicitly endorse its consumption by children for its claimed “benefits” society’s vested interest in protecting its minor citizens outweighs adults’ rights to idiocy and self-harm. ---
**Author:** ![Turpentine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Turpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turpentine)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/50 "2017-03-10T17:36:02Z")
[QUOTE= And that’s really the point. As a society we value the right of individuals to be stupid and do things that can harm themselves to a fairly significant albeit not absolute degree. No question it is not consistently applied based on the power of various lobbies. But in general we have less tolerance for people to be stupid in ways that put their children and others’ children at significant risk. Yes as much as it gets mocked someone _does_ “think of the children” and thus we have regulations limiting parental freedom to be stupid when it puts their (and possibly others’) kids at significant risk. Given both that milk as a product is often, even preferentially, consumed by children and that raw milk promotors often specifically and explicitly endorse its consumption by children for its claimed “benefits” society’s vested interest in protecting its minor citizens outweighs adults’ rights to idiocy and self-harm.[/QUOTE] Yep. Exactly. Like I said the last time this post was floating around, I think there’s a significant overlap between raw milk-people and antivaxxers. I think both groups are idiots. But sure, people should be free to be as stupid as they wish, right? But children are too young to choose to be stupid. And unfortunately, stupid raw milkers and stupid antivaxxers ending up hurting and killing children. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/51 "2017-03-10T18:03:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I totally believe that raw milk tastes different One of the reasons people believe that are unfair taste tests. If one is drinking raw milk on a farm, it could have a higher fat content than is usually found on store shelves. Whole milk usually has it’s fat removed first and then added back to a certain percentage. Some breeds of cows have naturally higher fat content. Or diets that make their milk tastier than some. A fair taste test would have to be done from the same milk sample. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/52 "2017-03-10T18:18:34Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > One of the reasons people believe that are unfair taste tests. If one is drinking raw milk on a farm, it could have a higher fat content than is usually found on store shelves. Whole milk usually has it’s fat removed first and then added back to a certain percentage. Some breeds of cows have naturally higher fat content. Or diets that make their milk tastier than some. A fair taste test would have to be done from the same milk sample. Well it does, at least the stuff I got from the family milk cows (which honestly I didnt care for). But you see that was fresh and warm from the udder, not homogenized nor refrigerated, nor stored nor pasteurized. Chilling changes the flavor quite a bit. Homogenization does change the mouth feel and texture, for sure, and you can buy pasteurized but non homogenized milk if you like. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/53 "2017-03-10T18:22:20Z")
I read somewhere that pasteurization can be done safely at a lower temperature than it’s normally done, so the milk can taste more like raw milk while still being safer. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/54 "2017-03-10T18:34:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But you see that was fresh and warm from the udder, not homogenized nor refrigerated, nor stored nor pasteurized. Chilling changes the flavor quite a bit. I was going to bring up temperature and homogenization (although mouth feel is technically different from taste) but my point was that the taste test had to be fair - same milk sample, same temperature, etc. Just one raw and the other pasteurized, or several others pasteurized using different methods. The milk from the family milk cows could also have differed for the reasons I already mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/55 "2017-03-11T01:16:25Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I was going to bring up temperature and homogenization (although mouth feel is technically different from taste) but my point was that the taste test had to be fair - same milk sample, same temperature, etc. Just one raw and the other pasteurized, or several others pasteurized using different methods. The milk from the family milk cows could also have differed for the reasons I already mentioned. I don’t think so. If the market for raw milk is fundamentally different from the market for pasteurized milk, leading to different products being on the market, then maybe that’s a fair aspect to consider. The really good raw milk I had was fresher and richer than supermarket milk. Fresher because it had to be, richer just because that’s how it is sold. I believe it was actually “whole milk”, and not reconstituted skim+enough cream to be classified as “whole”, which is what almost all commercially available milk is. But I can’t find that quality of milk in the supermarket (and there are lots of brands available at the local markets, and I’ve tried a lot of them.) I doubt it’s magically good for me. And I know there’s some risk. And I’m a huge fan of vaccines, and have gotten several as an adult that weren’t available when I was a kid. And I’ll buy raw milk again. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/56 "2017-03-11T02:33:32Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t think so. If the market for raw milk is fundamentally different from the market for pasteurized milk, leading to different products being on the market, then maybe that’s a fair aspect to consider. You don’t think so what? > [@](#): > > The really good raw milk I had was fresher and richer than supermarket milk. Fresher because it had to be, richer just because that’s how it is sold. I believe it was actually “whole milk”, and not reconstituted skim+enough cream to be classified as “whole”, which is what almost all commercially available milk is. I brought those points up already. It’s not that the raw milk some people have tried tastes better because it hasn’t been pasteurized, it’s because of other reasons, i.e., raw milk doesn’t taste different, milk that has higher fat, comes from a different breed of cow, comes from a cow with a different diet, is served at a warmer temperature, etc., tastes different, and this is the milk they’ve had raw. > [@](#): > > I can’t find that quality of milk in the supermarket (and there are lots of brands available at the local markets, and I’ve tried a lot of them.) That’s true of a lot of mass produced food compared to locally sourced. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/57 "2017-03-11T03:08:24Z")
I’ve love vaccines and have probably had more vaccines in my life then anyone I know, anthrax anyone? I actually would prefer irradiated milk to pasteurized milk. I live in a farm community were most everyone grew up drinking milk straight from the cow without ill effect and they sell raw milk in my local grocery store. I do have relatives who have issues digesting milk but have no problem with the real stuff. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/58 "2017-03-11T03:18:41Z")
Actually I’m far more upset that I can’t find unpasteurized orange juice. I grew up with a juice orange tree in my backyard and after what they do to the juice it never tastes the same. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/59 "2017-03-11T03:22:36Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Actually I’m far more upset that I can’t find unpasteurized orange juice. I grew up with a juice orange tree in my backyard and after what they do to the juice it never tastes the same. What stops you from buying oranges making your own juice? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/60 "2017-03-11T08:06:13Z")
Please tell me I’m not the only one kind of, well, not grossed out by raw milk, but a little, just…uuuhhhh. For one thing, people keep saying it’s warm when it’s fresh, and I like my milk ice cold - the colder the better. And I much, much much prefer 2%. It just sounds waaaay too rich. I don’t know, but the idea of raw milk…it pings my spidey sense, I suppose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944.md?page=4)