# FDA and Raw milk **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 14, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944 "2016-09-14T17:17:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/61 "2017-03-11T13:59:16Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > You don’t think so what? > I brought those points up already. It’s not that the raw milk some people have tried tastes better because it hasn’t been pasteurized, it’s because of other reasons, i.e., raw milk doesn’t taste different, milk that has higher fat, comes from a different breed of cow, comes from a cow with a different diet, is served at a warmer temperature, etc., tastes different, and this is the milk they’ve had raw. > That’s true of a lot of mass produced food compared to locally sourced. I don’t think you can separate all the differences in the marketplace between raw milk and supermarket milk. Yes, some of them are not actually due to the milk being unpasteurized. But from the perspective of a consumer, they may as well be. I buy from some smaller, locally sourced milk producers, but it’s just not the same as the (better) raw milk. So I’ll continue to buy raw milk, because that market supports other “features” that matter to me. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/62 "2017-03-11T14:00:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Please tell me I’m not the only one kind of, well, not grossed out by raw milk, but a little, just…uuuhhhh. For one thing, people keep saying it’s warm when it’s fresh, and I like my milk ice cold - the colder the better. And I much, much much prefer 2%. It just sounds waaaay too rich. > > I don’t know, but the idea of raw milk…it pings my spidey sense, I suppose. When I buy it, it’s cold. But warm milk is lovely (especially if you add some cocoa powder and vanilla extract.) Of course, I also eat raw oysters and sushi and sometimes raw beef. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/63 "2017-03-11T16:48:55Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Back in the bad old days there was a lot of TB and other nasty stuff transmitted by raw milk. As the latest story shows, the “bad old days” are still with us, when it comes to risks from pathogens such as Listeria. Campylobacter, pathogenic E. coli, Salmonella, Brucella etc. can be nasty actors as well. And tuberculosis transmitted through raw milk is not a vestige of the 19th century. _"In March 2004, a U.S.-born boy aged 15 months in New York City (NYC) died of peritoneal tuberculosis (TB) caused by Mycobacterium bovis infection. M. bovis, a bacterial species of the M. tuberculosis complex, is a pathogen that primarily infects cattle. However, humans also can become infected, most commonly through consumption of unpasteurized milk products from infected cows. In industrialized nations, human TB caused by M. bovis is rare because of milk pasteurization and culling of infected cattle herds (1). This report summarizes an ongoing, multiagency_ investigation that has identified 35 cases of human M. bovis infection in NYC. Preliminary findings indicate that fresh cheese (e.g., queso fresco) brought to NYC from Mexico was a likely source of infection. No evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found. Products from unpasteurized cow’s milk have been associated with certain infectious diseases and carry the risk of transmitting M. bovis if imported from countries where the bacterium is common in cattle. All persons should avoid consuming products from unpasteurized cow’s milk."\* [https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5424a4.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5424a4.htm) [Here’s a more contemporary report](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/earthnews/10151399/Bovine-TB-in-milk-as-well-as-beef.html) involving a farmer in the U.K., whose practices seem less than rigorously attuned to customers’ health. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/64 "2017-03-11T18:41:46Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > When I buy it, it’s cold. But warm milk is lovely (especially if you add some cocoa powder and vanilla extract.) > > Of course, I also eat raw oysters and sushi and sometimes raw beef. All of which are much more safe than drinking raw milk (assuming the raw beef was meant to be served raw). You’re the second person to bring up sushi as if it were particularly risky. Here in the U.S. raw fish sold for raw consumption is very safe. Not even close to being in the same ballpark as raw milk. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/65 "2017-03-11T19:08:56Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > All of which are much more safe than drinking raw milk Raw oysters are actually much riskier than raw dairy. So are eggs, poultry, peanut butter, ground beef, and cantaloupe. But for some reason skeptics never mention these foods as being particularly risky. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/66 "2017-03-11T19:19:32Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Raw oysters are actually much riskier than raw dairy. So are eggs, poultry, peanut butter, ground beef, and cantaloupe. But for some reason skeptics never mention these foods as being particularly risky. Why bring up raw ground beef? Did I recommend eating that? Is something that I, or most people, wouldn’t recommend be something that should be mentioned by a skeptic? Can you present evidence that peanut butter and cantaloupe consumption is riskier than raw milk? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/67 "2017-03-11T19:26:59Z")
IME, these “skeptics” that you mention, are close to paranoid about giving peanut butter to kids or anything that might contain peanuts. Or do you mean they don’t mention it when the topic of raw milk is raised. Why should they? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/68 "2017-03-11T20:11:37Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Raw oysters are actually much riskier than raw dairy. So are eggs, poultry, peanut butter, ground beef, and cantaloupe. But for some reason skeptics never mention these foods as being particularly risky. Really? 1. There is fairly little raw milk consumption in the United States at this point and a whole mess of raw oysters eaten. If you have data that demonstrates that per consumption raw oysters are more risky than is raw milk please do share. What I can find is this report of [2014’s numbers](https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/pdfs/foodborne-outbreaks-annual-report-2014-508.pdf). (See page 6). More than twice as many illnesses associated with molluscks than with dairy. (And despite the huge amount of nut and seed consumption in this country, especially by children, not much more than half as many illnesses than with mollusks.) Moreover a majority of the illness associated with raw milk consumption occurs _in children_ who by definition are not consenting to take the added risks, while most illness associated with raw oysters are in adults, generally those with at-risk conditions such as chronic liver disease, diabetes, or immunosuppression. The risk of serious disease to a healthy adult is real but much less. 2. No mention of raw oysters … or raw/undercooked eggs, chicken, ground beef … being risky?! What? Never mentioned? Huh?!? Specific to oysters there have been huge [battles](http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/11/still-too-many-raw-oyster-deaths/#.WMROZxLyui4) between the oyster industry (and Gulf state bodies that care most about their economic interests) and health regulation entities. The “skeptics” are concerned but excepting for California mandating treatments that reduce Vibrio risk have been shouted down by the industry. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/69 "2017-03-11T20:47:57Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Really? Yes, really. > **[Raw Milk Reality: Is Raw Milk Dangerous? - Chris Kresser](https://chriskresser.com/raw-milk-reality-is-raw-milk-dangerous/)** > > Foodbourne illness is a serious issue. But is drinking raw unpasteurized raw milk the culprit? The facts may surprise you. Read on for more details. > [@](#): > > According to the CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly (MMWR), from 2006 − 2008 there were an average of 13 outbreaks and 291 illnesses per year associated with shellfish and mollusks. According to the CDC FoodNet Survey, about 5.7% of the population (17,869,500) consumes shellfish. This means you had a roughly 1 in 61,000 chance of becoming ill from eating shellfish. That’s about 1.5 times the risk of becoming ill from drinking raw milk (1 in 94,000). > > The risk is even greater – and more serious – if you eat raw oysters. 7.4% of people who eat oysters consume them raw (1,322,343). **There are 15 deaths a year on average attributed to raw oyster consumption.** This means you have about a 1 in 88,000 chance of dying from raw oysters.\*\* In other words, you have a greater chance of dying from eating raw oysters than you do of getting sick from drinking unpasteurized milk.\*\* This is one of the few things that California has done correctly in my opinion. Raw oysters from the Gulf Coast were banned in California in 2003, but unpasteurized milk has been legal for years here and can be bought in the grocery store. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/70 "2017-03-11T20:50:43Z")
Plus, we are seeing num ers from the safest possible raw dairy–sold in small batches from small farms. Raw dairy on a commercial scale would have entirely different stats. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/71 "2017-03-11T22:38:16Z")
Kresser (not surprisingly) cherry picks numbers from a variety of sources and misrepresents what the numbers mean combining them inappropriately. [FoodNet](https://www.cdc.gov/foodnet/surveys/FNExpAtl03022011.pdf), which Kresser cites as documenting 3% of the U.S. population drinks raw milk, is not intended as a tool to determine national averages and does not do so, not unless you also believe that 6.7% of Americans eat Brussels sprouts, 13% limes, and 17% fresh cilantro in each week. It is a tracking tool for specific sites, intended to serve as “a sentinel” tool. But okay let’s go with FoodNet. The number there is 3% for raw milk and 30.7% for raw oysters. _Funny_ though that that is not the number that Kresser uses for raw oysters but instead flips to a different dataset that claims a 5.7% total shellfish (which he then dices down into a smaller number that he then says is the raw oyster number that should be compared to the raw milk number in the FoodNet dataset). _Sorry._ If you are going to use FoodNet _then use it for both_. You do see that doing otherwise is dishonest I hope? Over 10 times more raw oyster consumption than raw milk consumption, at least within the sentinel sites. Total illness associated with all mollusks consumption in 2014, most but not all caused by raw oysters (see cite already provided): 103. Total illness associated with all dairy consumption in 2014, most but not all caused by raw dairy: 267. Ten times as much raw oyster consumption than raw milk. Using FoodNet as definitive, as Kresser would have us do for raw milk at least, there is 26 times more risk of illness from raw milk than raw oysters. Most of them children who did not make the choice. Want to use [2006 numbers](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5822a1.htm) to match the 2006 FoodNet data? 223 mollusk cases. (Ten times the consumption.) 137 specifically raw milk with one death (yeah I know Kresser said there have been no deaths, he was wrong, go figure.) Okay _only_ over 6 times greater risk from raw milk. (He’s also against getting flu vaccines to speak to the overlap of those groups.) Kresser’s a disingenuous crock intentionally misrepresenting information in service of a conclusion he wanted. And that’s yes really. FWIW I think caution is reasonable with raw oysters and feeding them to young children, not common practice, would be stupid. California’s approach is okay by me. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/72 "2017-03-11T23:00:19Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > People who claim we need enzymes found in raw milk seem unacquainted with the human digestive tract, which breaks down proteins (including enzymes) before they are absorbed as constituent amino acids. Didn’t want to just leave this one out there in its raw form. Lactase is an Enzyme. People who take lactase pills report that the pills are effective. Doctors who recommend lactase supplements presumably are “acquainted” with the human digestive tract. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/73 "2017-03-11T23:22:31Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Plus, we are seeing num ers from the safest possible raw dairy–sold in small batches from small farms. Raw dairy on a commercial scale would have entirely different stats. there’s no way I would drink raw milk except from small batches sold locally, from dairies that practice excellent hygiene and are cognizant of the risks. There’s no way I’d eat raw ground beef unless it was prepared in a very small batch, either. When I eat raw beef, it’s ordinarily pieces cut (by me) from the center of a large chunk of fresh meat. I do eat commercial raw shellfish, but I got myself vaccinated for hepatitis A in part because I love raw shellfish. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/74 "2017-03-12T00:04:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But okay let’s go with FoodNet. The number there is 3% for raw milk and 30.7% for raw oysters. _Funny_ though that that is not the number that Kresser uses for raw oysters but instead flips to a different dataset that claims a 5.7% total shellfish (which he then dices down into a smaller number that he then says is the raw oyster number that should be compared to the raw milk number in the FoodNet dataset). > > _Sorry._ If you are going to use FoodNet _then use it for both_. You do see that doing otherwise is dishonest I hope? Over 10 times more raw oyster consumption than raw milk consumption, at least within the sentinel sites. Dude, get a grip. That 30.7% is the percentage that responded affirmatively to “_If yes, were the oysters raw?_”. So that’s 30.7% of the 2.6% who actually ate oysters in the past week, or 0.8% of the total. Did you honestly think that 30.7% of the population eats raw oysters every week? And yet around 15 people in the U.S. DIE from eating raw oysters every single year. How many decades would you have to go back in order to find 15 deaths from drinking raw milk? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/75 "2017-03-12T00:43:49Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Lactase is an Enzyme. People who take lactase pills report that the pills are effective. Doctors who recommend lactase supplements presumably are “acquainted” with the human digestive tract. There are instances where enzyme supplements (such as Lactaid) can be useful - _but those that are effective perform their functions in the digestive tract_\* and are not systemically absorbed, which is a claim commonly made for enzymes contained within raw milk. More explanatory info [here](http://www.berkeleywellness.com/supplements/other-supplements/article/enzyme-supplements-yea-or-nay). Hilariously, raw milk advocates argue that raw milk contains the enzymes needed to digest it properly (if this was true, no one would ever need lactase supplements), and claim that raw milk is chock full of antibacterial, antiviral and antiparasitic substances (again, if it was such an effective germ fighter, we wouldn’t be seeing people sickened and killed by drinking it. In the great majority of cases, enzyme supplements touted to relieve chronic health conditions never make it into the bloodstream in significant quantities, and they don’t accomplish anything useful. Some foods are beneficial for health, but don’t expect that to be due to systemic enzyme effects. \*Pancreatic enzyme preparations (used for those with pancreatic insufficiency) are commonly enteric-coated, to allow them to avoid destruction in the stomach and to pass into the small intestine. Enzymes and other proteins in raw milk do not have this protection. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/76 "2017-03-12T02:18:44Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > … That 30.7% is the percentage that responded affirmatively to “_If yes, were the oysters raw?_”. So that’s 30.7% of the 2.6% who actually ate oysters in the past week, or 0.8% of the total. … My misread and apologies for it. No, I did not believe that many people eat raw oysters … or that many Brussels Sprouts or cilantro … or raw milk. Trying however to stay with the _same_ inappropriate dataset. Which does not change the oddness of Kresser not using the oyster number from same FoodNet even if the point is less dramatic. It makes the numbers pretty much comparable. And that brings us back to the original question - food safety advocates indeed warn about raw oysters as much as raw milk if not more. Why is one more often against the law to sell? And the answer is twofold. One is simply that the oyster industry has a powerful lobby. But the other is again the who. Adults making stupid decisions that mainly put themselves at risk alone are given wide berth to do so in our society but not given as much berth to impose the same stupidity on kids. Few adults with children who eat raw oysters are pushing their kids to eat raw oysters with regularity; adults with children who consume raw milk are giving it to their children and kids are the majority of those who get sick as a result. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/77 "2017-03-12T04:48:57Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Didn’t want to just leave this one out there in its raw form. > > Lactase is an Enzyme. People who take lactase pills report that the pills are effective. Doctors who recommend lactase supplements presumably are “acquainted” with the human digestive tract. Yes, but milk, raw or not, doesnt contain lactase. (You can buy milk where it has been added) [https://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/BuyStoreServeSafeFood/ucm247991.htm](https://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/BuyStoreServeSafeFood/ucm247991.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/78 "2017-03-12T06:02:07Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > When I buy it, it’s cold. But warm milk is lovely (especially if you add some cocoa powder and vanilla extract.) > > Of course, I also eat raw oysters and sushi and sometimes raw beef. Well, hot chocolate is one thing. Warm milk itself? Blech. When it comes to milk, the colder the better. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/79 "2017-03-12T06:05:42Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Didn’t want to just leave this one out there in its raw form. > > Lactase is an Enzyme. People who take lactase pills report that the pills are effective. Doctors who recommend lactase supplements presumably are “acquainted” with the human digestive tract. Lactase pills aren’t 100% lactase and lactase doesn’t get absorbed. The process by which the pills get digested releases the lactase, the lactase then does its job within the small intesting before getting broken down. People who wish to correct others on how the digestive tract works should become acquainted with the subject first. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944/80 "2017-03-12T06:56:52Z")
Small point: there is _most definitely_ a difference in taste between raw milk and pasteurized milk not attributable to differences in butterfat content. Tasting them side by side, the pasteurized milk has a distinct cooked-milk taste, such as you find in boiled milk. Raw milk does not. Part of the reason raw milk tastes “creamier”, irrespective of butterfat content, is because of the lack of competing flavors from the cooked-milk taste. And raw cream…sigh. Pathogen-laced food of the gods. I can only reminisce to the days before I knew about the risks… I too have read about the newer milk pasteurization process using lower temperatures for a longer period of time referred to in **Dewey Finn** ’s post - I think in the NYTimes in a Sunday Magazine feature? I’ve not had the opportunity to knowingly taste milk pasteurized with this process, but would love to try it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fda-and-raw-milk/765944.md?page=5)