# FDR and the Atomic Bomb. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073 "2010-03-11T03:24:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![acetylene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@acetylene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/acetylene)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/21 "2010-03-11T16:01:24Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Japanese observers were invited to the Trinity test and saw what the bomb could do - so they already had their “invite them to an abandoned island and show them what it can do” moment. Could you elaborate on this please? I have read quite a bit about this subject but have never heard of any Japanese observers at Trinity, or even being invited. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/22 "2010-03-11T16:07:01Z")
I can’t see how anyone can argue that some more direct threat would have made Japan surrender. We actually used the bomb to blow up Hiroshima and they didn’t surrender then. Why would a threat have been scarier than an actual bombing? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/23 "2010-03-11T16:13:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I can’t see how anyone can argue that some more direct threat would have made Japan surrender. We actually used the bomb to blow up Hiroshima and they didn’t surrender then. Why would a threat have been scarier than an actual bombing? Only three days elapsed between the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. Isn’t it possible that the Japanese government simply didn’t have time to realize how badly devestated Hiroshima had been? The transportation infrastructure was a mess, and even in _good_ circumstances modern states can have trouble quickly assessing the scope of a major disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/24 "2010-03-11T16:16:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I can’t see how anyone can argue that some more direct threat would have made Japan surrender. We actually used the bomb to blow up Hiroshima and they didn’t surrender then. Why would a threat have been scarier than an actual bombing? Well (playing Devil’s Advocate since I agree that the Bomb needed to be used) I suppose they might say prior to any of this happening no one knew and we should have tried with an example bombing of some uninhabited place. Presuming more new bombs were coming online in relatively short order that might even be an acceptable thing to try. Of course not sure how the Soviets might have responded if given time to think on what just happened. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/25 "2010-03-11T16:22:16Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Only three days elapsed between the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. Isn’t it possible that the Japanese government simply didn’t have time to realize how badly devestated Hiroshima had been? The transportation infrastructure was a mess, and even in _good_ circumstances modern states can have trouble quickly assessing the scope of a major disaster. Nah…hell, the US government was able to assess the scope of the Pearl Harbor attack and declare war on Japan barely 24 hours later. The Japanese government knew full well what happened very shortly after it happened. While the fiddly details may have been unavailable without a doubt they knew a city had been effectively leveled by a single plane dropping one bomb. Japan had a nuclear weapons program of their own. They knew what one was so this was no magical thing to the government. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/26 "2010-03-11T16:23:11Z")
> [@acetylene](#): > > Could you elaborate on this please? I have read quite a bit about this subject but have never heard of any Japanese observers at Trinity, or even being invited. I’ve never heard anything like this either. Wouldn’t make any sense either, since they didn’t really know if The Gadget worked, or what exactly would happen if it did; > [@](#): > > The plutonium sphere would need to be compressed on all sides exactly equally—any error would result in a “fizzle” which would simply disperse the valuable plutonium and not result in a large explosion. Because of the difficulties in creating the explosive lenses for perfect compression, Manhattan Project military leader Major General Leslie Groves and scientific director J. Robert Oppenheimer decided that a test of the concept would have to be undertaken before a weapon could be confidently used in war. The Fat Man bomb, which used the same design, was exploded over Nagasaki on August 9, 1945, after the Trinity test proved its feasibility. > **[Trinity (nuclear test)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_%28nuclear_test%29#)** > > Trinity was the first detonation of a nuclear weapon, conducted by the United States Army at 5:29 a.m. Mountain War Time\[a\] (11:29:21 GMT) on July 16, 1945, as part of the Manhattan Project. The test was of an implosion-design plutonium bomb, or "gadget" – the same design as the Fat Man bomb later detonated over Nagasaki, Japan, on August 9, 1945. Concerns about whether the complex Fat Man design would work led to a decision to conduct the first nuclear test. The code name "Trinity" was assig... Stalin was aware of the bomb [through [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus\_Fuchs]espio](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Hall)[nage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Greenglass), though I’ve never seen evidence that the Japanese were. In any case, the Japanese had ample warning of Allied intentions if they didn’t surrender. Terms were clearly laid out in Potsdam and Cairo. The Potsdam Declaration, issued just after the Trinity test, states: > [@](#): > > # We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction. > **[Potsdam Declaration | Birth of the Constitution of Japan](https://www.ndl.go.jp/constitution/e/etc/c06.html)** Truman references Potsdam directly after Hiroshima: > [@](#): > > It was to spare the Japanese people from utter destruction that the ultimatum of July 26 was issued at Potsdam. Their leaders promptly rejected that ultimatum. If they do not now accept our terms they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth. Behind this air attack will follow sea and land forces in such numbers and power as they have not yet seen and with the fighting skill of which they are already well aware. [http://www.trumanlibrary.org/calendar/viewpapers.php?pid=100](http://www.trumanlibrary.org/calendar/viewpapers.php?pid=100) The Japanese certainly had their moment. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/27 "2010-03-11T17:31:53Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > My position on this issue has always been that the Japanese should thank us for dropping the bomb on them. Seriously. They should hold some sort of legislative meeting now and pass an official motion to thank the United States. Because their wonky culture beliefs wouldn’t have allowed them to surrender until they were almost wiped out as a country. We actually should all be grateful, not just the Japanese. I don’t those who built the bomb, or anyone else, had any idea of what it could do to people - certainly not in the detail described by Hersey in “Hiroshima.” I wonder how much more likely either we or the Russians would be to use the bomb if a real example of its effects was not available. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/28 "2010-03-11T17:41:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We actually should all be grateful, not just the Japanese. I don’t those who built the bomb, or anyone else, had any idea of what it could do to people - certainly not in the detail described by Hersey in “Hiroshima.” I wonder how much more likely either we or the Russians would be to use the bomb if a real example of its effects was not available. I think they had a good idea what radiation could do to people. Several people died when building the bomb from radiation exposure. They knew it was not pretty. > [@](#): > > The Demon Core was the nickname given to a 6.2-kilogram (14 lb) subcritical mass of plutonium that accidentally went critical on two separate instances at the Los Alamos laboratory, in 1945 and 1946. Each incident resulted in the acute radiation poisoning and subsequent death of a scientist. After these incidents, the core was referred to as the Demon Core. > > SOURCE: [Demon core - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core) ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/29 "2010-03-11T17:55:10Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Nah…hell, the US government was able to assess the scope of the Pearl Harbor attack and declare war on Japan barely 24 hours later. > > The Japanese government knew full well what happened very shortly after it happened. While the fiddly details may have been unavailable without a doubt they knew a city had been effectively leveled by a single plane dropping one bomb. Japan had a nuclear weapons program of their own. They knew what one was so this was no magical thing to the government. The Pearl Harbor attack was essentially isolated to one part of the island, it didn’t wipe out the entire city. Everyone (including the survivors) could see the planes. Of course the US government could scope out the situation - it was obvious what had happened. Japan declaring war shortly after the attack also kinda helped. In Hiroshima’s case, _no one_ knew what the hell had happened. There wasn’t an entire squadron of planes. Survivors initially thought that only their neighborhood had been firebombed. It took people who were actually there _days_ before the realized the extent of the damage. Headquarters back in Tokyo heard about the bombing, but IIRC they were just coming to grips with the full extent of the damage when Nagasaki hit. I personally suspect that even if a week had passed, Japan probably would not have surrendered right away, so in the end the whole point might be mute. But to say that three days was enough for everyone in Japan to fully realize what had happened just isn’t true, in my view. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/30 "2010-03-11T17:57:14Z")
> [@acetylene](#): > > Could you elaborate on this please? I have read quite a bit about this subject but have never heard of any Japanese observers at Trinity, or even being invited. Turns out I was wrong, sorry, please forget what I said. When I thought about it more, it wasn’t actually that I remembered reading (I think on another message board argument) that Japanese observers were invited, but some from a neutral country who were allowed to communicate the results diplomatically. However, I can’t find any support for the idea at all, so I was misinformed. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/31 "2010-03-11T18:09:28Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > How do we threaten them exactly? Tell them about it? They probably wouldn’t believe us. Explode it on a remote island with no inhabitants and invite them to watch? What if it didn’t work? That would probably be worse than not telling them about it in the first place. I’ve never understood this “made it worse” line of reasoning. I mean, I get that a demonstration might not have convinced them, but how could our relationship with Imperial Japan have gotten any _worse?_ I mean, they were already sending their young men against us in suicide attacks and training the civilian populati0on for mass martyrdom, and we had already leveled their **60 largest cities** with firebombs and were preparing to drop nuclear weapons on them. Without the bomb existing, they would have dug in and awaited frontal assault. In the actual event of the bombs destroying Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the military government dug in and awaited frontal assault for a few days until the Emperor made an unprecedented plea that they change their minds. Wouldn’t a failed demonstration have resulted in them digging in and awaiting frontal assault? We’d have been right back where we started, but we were there _before_ we had the bomb and we were there _after_ using it (until the unpredictable action by the emperor). What would we have lost in terms of the relationship and the chance to end the war? Trust? They already thought we were liars and cowards. We _hated each others’ guts_ on a _national scale._ So what are you saying? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/32 "2010-03-11T18:13:07Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > In Hiroshima’s case, _no one_ knew what the hell had happened. There wasn’t an entire squadron of planes. Survivors initially thought that only their neighborhood had been firebombed. It took people who were actually there _days_ before the realized the extent of the damage. Headquarters back in Tokyo heard about the bombing, but IIRC they were just coming to grips with the full extent of the damage when Nagasaki hit. Nonsense. The average Joe in Hiroshima may have been pretty puzzled but the government got the idea quickly enough. Some 70% of the population of Hiroshima survived. There were people at all sorts of ranges from ground zero. People in the hills could easily look into the city and see the devastation. There was plenty of ability and people to report back to Tokyo. Doubtless Tokyo immediately flew down some experts to assess it as well and report back which would have taken no more than a few hours for a first look from the air report to get back. And, as mentioned, the Japanese actually had their own nuclear weapons program. While nowhere near as far along as ours their scientists certainly knew of the theory and the potential of such a weapon. President Truman announced the next day it was an atomic bomb. In short, the Japanese government knew pretty quickly what it was facing. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/33 "2010-03-11T18:13:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I can’t see how anyone can argue that some more direct threat would have made Japan surrender. We actually used the bomb to blow up Hiroshima and they didn’t surrender then. Why would a threat have been scarier than an actual bombing? But we didn’t _know_ they weren’t going to surrender. The question isn’t really “would a demonstration have worked?” so much as “do we want to just indiscriminately kill when there’s a significant chance we can skip that part if we put our minds to it?” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/34 "2010-03-11T18:16:28Z")
People here seem to be arguing two conflicting points. Some are saying we should have allowed the Japanese to witness a test bomb so they could fully appreciate how devastating it would be against a real city. Others are saying that the Americans, who did witness a test bomb, did not fully appreciated how devasting a bomb would be against a real city. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/35 "2010-03-11T18:19:31Z")
> [@](#): > > But we didn’t know they weren’t going to surrender. The question isn’t really “would a demonstration have worked?” so much as “do we want to just indiscriminately kill when there’s a significant chance we can skip that part if we put our minds to it?” But we know it now. So what are you arguing? That the people back in 1945 should have made the wrong choice? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/36 "2010-03-11T18:24:10Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I personally suspect that even if a week had passed, Japan probably would not have surrendered right away, so in the end the whole point might be mute. Nitpick: _moot._ ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/37 "2010-03-11T18:25:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But we know it now. So what are you arguing? That the people back in 1945 should have made the wrong choice? Wrong in what way? A choice that doesn’t end the war but does demonstrate one’s humanity and fairness certainly leaves one no worse off militarily. It could then be followed by the _same_ choice we made historically, nuking a city. No worse off overall, but a permanent record of America having tried to do the right thing instead of just pasting Japan as soon as we could. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/38 "2010-03-11T18:34:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > People here seem to be arguing two conflicting points. Some are saying we should have allowed the Japanese to witness a test bomb so they could fully appreciate how devastating it would be against a real city. Others are saying that the Americans, who did witness a test bomb, did not fully appreciated how devasting a bomb would be against a real city. IIRC the people in the US familiar with the bomb knew it would be devastating but I think they underestimated the lasting effects of radiation. They knew radiation was a part of it and was nasty but (again IIRC) thought it would be pretty much done and over faster than it was. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/39 "2010-03-11T18:59:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Wrong in what way? A choice that doesn’t end the war but does demonstrate one’s humanity and fairness certainly leaves one no worse off militarily. > > It could then be followed by the same choice we made historically, nuking a city. No worse off overall, but a permanent record of America having tried to do the right thing instead of just pasting Japan as soon as we could. You have to remember that the atom bomb did not take the war to some new level. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the biggest bombing raids of the war. The conventional bombing mission on Tokyo on March 9 killed more people and destroyed more property than the atom bombs did. In 1945, the atom bomb was just seen as a much more effective version of the strategic bombs that been used throughout the war. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073/40 "2010-03-11T19:22:47Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Wrong in what way? A choice that doesn’t end the war but does demonstrate one’s humanity and fairness certainly leaves one no worse off militarily. > > It could then be followed by the _same_ choice we made historically, nuking a city. No worse off overall, but a permanent record of America having tried to do the right thing instead of just pasting Japan as soon as we could. Actually it would have left one a hell of a lot worse of militarily. We had three bombs (I always thought it was two until reading this thread). Dropping one as a demo would have wasted 33% of the available weapons, at a time when we did not know how many Japanese cities would need to be razed to bring about surrender. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-and-the-atomic-bomb/532073.md?page=3)