# FDR Jr....twice! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 3, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409 "2013-05-03T13:07:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/1 "2013-05-03T13:07:33Z")
So, I was reading some stuff on FDR, and saw that he had a son, which he named Franklin Delano Roosevelt Jr., in 1909. He later died as an infant about 8 months later. Then, in 1914, FDR had another son, which he named Franklin Delano Roosevelt Jr. I find this insanely bizzare. Some searching on the (odd to me) practice here has revealed frankly no mention of this fact…not even the Wikipedia article on the surviving FDR Jr. Is this or was this a somewhat common way to do things? I can imagine reserving the Jr for a surviving son if one was stillborn or something, but the first kid was alive and kicking for the better part of a year. I’m sure they had a burial and funeral and such. I would imagine that in most situations, the next 1914 FDR Jr. should have been FDR III, but that moniker went to the 1914 FDR Jr’s son. Also, does anyone know why they chose to re-use the name of one of their previous children? The only other time I can think of that this happened was with the multiple George Foremans…but that was just extreme vanity…and even they go by George Jr, III, IV, V, VI. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/2 "2013-05-03T13:30:06Z")
There appear to have been different ‘rules’ in the early 20th, especially among upper-crust families. The Gilbreths had a daughter whose name was Lillian Moller Gilbreth Jr. Of course, having a highly distinguished mother was unusual in those days. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/3 "2013-05-03T13:38:27Z")
In my genealogy research, I’ve found that this sort of thing happened often when a previous child died very young, both for boys and girls. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/4 "2013-05-03T13:44:10Z")
I’ve heard of other cases where a child is named after a deceased sibling. I would think as far as Juniors go it would have been common in the past when infant mortality rates were higher. It doesn’t seem that unusual to me, it’s naming someone after a deceased relative, in this case just a sibling. It’s certainly not like George Foreman’s kids, all named George. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/5 "2013-05-03T14:00:52Z")
> [@Jman](#): > > Some searching on the (odd to me) practice here has revealed frankly no mention of this fact…not even the Wikipedia article on the surviving FDR Jr. It’s in the wikipedia article. It’s at the end of the first paragraph under Personal Life. Admittedly it could be made a bit more clear but it’s been in there at least since 2011 (I didn’t look further back than that). [QUOTE=wikipedia] A brother of the same name had died in infancy in November 1909, having lived only several months. [/QUOTE] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin\_Delano\_Roosevelt,\_Jr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Delano_Roosevelt,_Jr). ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/6 "2013-05-03T14:38:26Z")
It was pretty much standard in 18th and 19th century Norway to name kids after their grandparents and reuse the names when one of those kids died. Which of course is not terribly relevant to the case of FDR, but it’s information on the topic in general. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gus\_Gusterson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@Gus\_Gusterson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gus_Gusterson)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/7 "2013-05-03T14:42:17Z")
The Jeffersons had Lucy Elizabeth I and Lucy Elizabeth II. Lucy I lived 6 months. Lucy II was born a year after Lucy I’s death and lived 2.5 years. John Tyler had two sons named John and two sons named Robert, among many other children. In this case, the repeats were with different wives and their lives overlapped. The ones with the second wife went by other names to avoid confusion, though there was probably little confusion anyway because they were born decades apart. [I know these things because my daughter is obsessed with US presidents. She pointed these out in a book about first children last night.] ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/8 "2013-05-03T14:48:46Z")
Yeah, I wouldn’t view it as odd had FDR Jr (2) just been named FDR…but the fact they still considered him a Jr. is odd to me. I would think he’d be III, since his older, deceased brother was already the Jr. But, it is interesting to know that it was moderately common. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/9 "2013-05-03T14:54:21Z")
> [@Jman](#): > > Yeah, I wouldn’t view it as odd had FDR Jr (2) just been named FDR…but the fact they still considered him a Jr. is odd to me. I would think he’d be III, since his older, deceased brother was already the Jr. I think it might have been seen as “incorrect” - FDR’s child would NEVER be a “third”; that would have to come only in a succeeding or parallel generation. Maybe giving a second child the same name as a deceased predecessor is the unusual part, but once past that, naming the second child Junior is correct on the generational-naming level. Had a cousin or sibling had a child with the same name after the first one, and certainly after the second one, it would have been correct to name them FDR III. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/10 "2013-05-03T15:42:03Z")
A Jr. doesn’t seem odd to me. He’s the namesake of his father, and if a sibling has passed away another could take that place. The father-to-son chain of names would be expected to continue. Depending on who you ask, Jr. becomes Sr. on the death of his father, and his son III becomes Jr., so the suffix is ordinal. The reuse of the name for a sibling is no odder that reusing the name between father and son. We could add versioning to the system, the first son could be Jr.I, the second Jr.II, etc., resulting in something like III.V being the uncle of IV.I.III. The big problem is the ordinal shift each time someone dies. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/11 "2013-05-03T15:49:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > We could add versioning to the system, the first son could be Jr.I, the second Jr.II, etc., resulting in something like III.V being the uncle of IV.I.III. The big problem is the ordinal shift each time someone dies. Not at all. The first one was FDR.1, the second FDR.2, and grandchildren would thus be FDR.2.1, etc. Perfectly simple. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/12 "2013-05-03T16:05:01Z")
> [@Gus\_Gusterson](#): > > The Jeffersons had Lucy Elizabeth I and Lucy Elizabeth II. Lucy I lived 6 months. Lucy II was born a year after Lucy I’s death and lived 2.5 years. > > John Tyler had two sons named John and two sons named Robert, among many other children. In this case, the repeats were with different wives and their lives overlapped. The ones with the second wife went by other names to avoid confusion, though there was probably little confusion anyway because they were born decades apart. > > [I know these things because my daughter is obsessed with US presidents. She pointed these out in a book about first children last night.] On a similar note, Paul Revere had two daughters named Mary with his first wife, and three sons named John with his second wife (none of them were alive at the same time as their same-named siblings, though). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/13 "2013-05-03T16:12:04Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Not at all. The first one was FDR.1, the second FDR.2, and grandchildren would thus be FDR.2.1, etc. Perfectly simple. Yes, if you do it like real versioning and don’t make the subscripts ordinal. But doing that and starting from Adam and Eve everyone’s name will be incredibly long. On the other hand, everybody will be totally confused so it won’t matter. I think we should stick with the current way of doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/14 "2013-05-03T16:35:49Z")
It may also have also been an acceptable turn-of-the-century way to “forget” the death of the earlier child. By giving the name to another child one can almost conflate the infancy of both, so that only the memory of the child’s death (and not the entirety of his short life) needs to be put out of mind. It sounds cruel and insensitive now, but that sort of attitude was probably a psychological necessity when infant mortality was more common. ---
**Author:** ![Number](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/number/32/242_2.png) [@Number](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Number)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/15 "2013-05-04T04:12:48Z")
Another branch of the family had confusing naming conventions too. [Theodore Roosevelt, Sr.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt,_Sr.) was fairly well-known before his son [Theodore Roosevelt Jr.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt) became President. But then Teddy went and named his eldest son [Theodore Roosevelt, Jr.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt,_Jr.) as well. Then _his_ son (Teddy’s grandson) was known as [Theodore Roosevelt III](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt_III), despite being the fourth one to go by that name. And [so on down the line](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt_%28disambiguation%29). On the bright side, I guess they could get a lot of use out of monogrammed hand-me-downs. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/16 "2013-05-04T11:03:26Z")
> [@Number](#): > > [Theodore Roosevelt, Sr.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt,_Sr.) was fairly well-known before his son [Theodore Roosevelt Jr.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt) became President. But then Teddy went and named his eldest son [Theodore Roosevelt, Jr.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt,_Jr.) as well. Then _his_ son (Teddy’s grandson) was known as [Theodore Roosevelt III](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt_III), despite being the fourth one to go by that name. One method for naming is that when the “Sr” dies, everyone moves up a step. So a Jr would be “promoted” to Sr and a III becomes a Jr. The names supposedly are to disambiguate among the living, not those who are already dead. But it can lead to lots of confusion if someone becomes famous with a particular name. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/17 "2013-05-04T21:07:06Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > One method for naming is that when the “Sr” dies, everyone moves up a step. So a Jr would be “promoted” to Sr and a III becomes a Jr. The names supposedly are to disambiguate among the living, not those who are already dead. But it can lead to lots of confusion if someone becomes famous with a particular name. It gets tougher when one of your names is Junior. Junior can be a first name, or last name. You could end up with a Junior Junior Jr. who becomes Junior Junior Sr. upon the death of his father. Or he could just call himself Senior Senior Sr. ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/18 "2013-05-04T23:09:37Z")
Salvador Dali had an older brother (who died before the famous Dali was born), also named Salvador Dali. It apparently haunted him all his life. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/19 "2013-05-04T23:18:13Z")
_Gone with the Wind_ mentions that Scarlett O’Hara’s family cemetery had three headstones for her brothers who all died in infancy, each bearing the name “Gerald O’Hara, Jr.” Of course, that’s fiction, but as other posters have attested, the naming convention it referenced did really exist. As **Elmer** notes, it was not at all uncommon for children to die in infancy back in the old days, making it somewhat impractical to permanently “retire” a cherished name if the child who bore it died. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409/20 "2013-05-04T23:20:49Z")
Ironically FDR jr. nearly died in college from a sinus infection. He received a new drug called sulfa that saved him. Sulfa was a very early antibiotic. > **[The Demon Under the Microscope: From Battlefield Hospitals to Nazi Labs, One...](https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Under-Microscope-Battlefield-Hospitals/dp/1400082145)** > > Buy The Demon Under the Microscope: From Battlefield Hospitals to Nazi Labs, One Doctor's Heroic Search for the World's First Miracle Drug on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders > [@](#): > > Sulfa saved millions of lives—among them those of Winston Churchill and Franklin Delano Roosevelt Jr.—but its real effects are even more far reaching. Sulfa changed the way new drugs were developed, approved, and sold; transformed the way doctors treated patients; and ushered in the era of modern medicine. The very concept that chemicals created in a lab could cure disease revolutionized medicine, taking it from the treatment of symptoms and discomfort to the eradication of the root cause of illness. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fdr-jr-twice/657409.md?page=2)