# Fear Itself, Don't Give Legal Advice When You Don't Know What You're Talking About **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105 "2006-09-01T18:58:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/1 "2006-09-01T18:58:25Z")
In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=386464), NUTTY BUNNY asked whether there may be a liability issue if the company she is performing services for poaches her from the company that currently employs her. FEAR ITSELF immediately sweepingly opines “You have the right to accept any job, anywhere, any time.” On having it pointed out that this is not necessarily correct, FEAR ITSELF restates: “But I stand by my original staement; you have the right to accept any job, anywhere, anytime.” I have started this Pit thread because I can’t do justice to my response in General Questions. FEAR ITSELF – > [@](#): > > On the other hand, you as an attorney are so concerned with avoiding any liability you refrain from giving any useful advice whatsoever. I am willing to take a risk, you avoid it like the plague. Which is a better way to go through life? You complete moron. At the time you offered your “useful advice” in the linked thread, you did not know where the woman lived and worked; what she did; whether there was any sort of non-compete or non-poaching agreement in place; and/or the enforceability of those agreements in her jurisdiction. We _still_ don’t know many of those factors – unless you’re an employment lawyer in New York State? Which, of course, you aren’t. Any one of these factors would materially change the advice a lawyer would give and, depending on the factors, advice that might be correct in one scenario might well be incorrect in another. So please explain: How is giving “advice” that may well be flat-out wrong a “useful” thing to do? Confidently giving advice when you don’t have enough facts to understand the situation is not useful; it’s irresponsible. I also find it very amusing that you are “willing to take the risk” – what risk is that? That you might sprain a finger as you type? There is no risk to you in posting “advice” you’ve pulled out of your ass; the risk is on the person who might take that advice, wrongly believing based on the confidence with which you post that you know what you’re talking about when you don’t. And there _is_ more risk to me, because I am a lawyer, while you are simply some moron taking it upon himself to post potentially incorrect legal statements on someone else’s “rights.” Even if I did not consider it a bad idea to wade in on any subject, from brain surgery to how to bake a cake, if I don’t have enough information, I am professionally prohibited from making the type of WAG you cheerfully pooped in that thread. I am bound by professional ethics and subject to potential personal liability that make it a Very Bad Idea for me to give advice when I don’t have enough information to know what the advice should be. This is not risk aversion on my part; it’s common sense. > [@](#): > > Nope. Just offering an opinion, and saying what I would do. Apparently those employed in the legal profession find that threatening. It is transparently clear at this point that your “opinion” is without any factual or legal foundation, and therefore is worth a fart in the wind. We are just fortunate in this situation that BUN appears smart enough to disregard your advice. I am not in any way threatened by other people giving sound legal advice, but I am extremely resentful of those who give bad legal advice – because it is **bad legal advice**. I also am nettled by the immaturity of people who, when it is pointed out that they were wrong, or even _possibly_ wrong, say “well, that’s what I said and I meant it,” as if they lack not only the intelligence to see their error but the emotional maturity to, if not admit it, at least let it go. I _am_ a lawyer. And every time I see some fool like you giving bad legal advice without the facts or law to back it up, I will call you on it. Because I feel like I have a professional obligation to make sure no one relies on what you say when the reality is you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. And I would suggest that, if you _don’t_ know what the fuck you’re talking about, you should either qualify your opinion (“This what I think the law is in California, but actually I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about.”) Or, better yet, shut the hell up. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/2 "2006-09-01T19:01:39Z")
Much like one of the old Soviet gymnasts, this rant gets a 9.8 for its flawless, surgical precision, but an 8.5 for what many of the judges felt was a lack of truly fiery emotion. The Bulgarian judge, of course, differed. Nicely done! ---
**Author:** ![Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Key_Lime_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/3 "2006-09-01T19:14:57Z")
I disagree with this pitting. If **NUTTY BUNNY** wants actual, specific legal advice, she won’t post a message on a general-interest message board. It seems to me that **Fear Itself** gave a non-binding, general answer which was basically accurate in spirit. That kind of answer is often very useful. (And, I hasten to mention, it is also useful when people with more specific expertise - like you Jodi - provide additional information. The two kinds of advice can coexist peacefully.) **Fear Itself** is also correct that all advice-giving and advice-taking involves risk. I would hate for the Dope to become so rigid that someone couldn’t give a general answer to a general question without having a Ph.D. in that area. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/4 "2006-09-01T19:18:01Z")
It seems you do want to bust my chops. Note to self: never take a lawyer at her word, even when it is in writing. After all that, it turns out I was right after all, with respect to the OP who lives in New York. Let us examine what an [attorney licensed to practice in that state has to say about non-compete contracts](http://www.myemploymentlawyer.com/mel/answer.php3?answer_id=959): > [@](#): > > New York courts tend to disfavor non-compete clauses in employment agreements. They will fairly readily enforce non-competes that are part of the sale of a business, but employees usually win the cases involving employment non-competes. The reason employment non-competes are disfavored is because they tend to deny people the ability to make a living and advance in the field they are best qualified to work. Sometimes court will relate back their concerns to the 13th Amendment, which outlawed slavery. > > There are excepts to this general tendency of New York courts. A court might enforce an employment non-compete to the extent needed to protect the employer’s proprietary information, such as trade secrets, or very difficult to construct customer lists. Courts might enforce employment non-competes in which the employee is compensated for the time the employee is out of the market. So save your windbaggery for the courtroom, Counselor. I am not impressed. If you don’t like it, call the Internet Police. And you will just have to stick around if you want to find out if I am likely to “shut the hell up” just because some ambulance chaser gets her panties in twist. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/5 "2006-09-01T19:22:31Z")
Seen opinions suggesting we have more Jews than one might expect here at the SDMB. Lots of suggestions we have too many liberal-lefties. Have we more lawyers than statisticly probable? Just askin’. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/6 "2006-09-01T19:30:41Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Let us examine what an [attorney licensed to practice in that state has to say about non-compete contracts](http://www.myemploymentlawyer.com/mel/answer.php3?answer_id=959): [/quote] It seems to me rather significant that you didn’t cite this when you made your original statement. Your advice was bad even if it “turns out” that you might have been right _about only one of the multiple issues involved_. > [@](#): > > So save your windbaggery for the courtroom, Counselor. I am not impressed. If you don’t like it, call the Internet Police. And you will just have to stick around if you want to find out if I am likely to “shut the hell up” just because some ambulance chaser gets her panties in twist. “Windbaggery”? “Panties in a twist”? You really don’t see how somebody might genuinely be concerned about uninformed advice on an issue that could have serious consequences for the OP? Are you that shallow? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/7 "2006-09-01T19:37:09Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Seen opinions suggesting we have more Jews than one might expect here at the SDMB. Lots of suggestions we have too many liberal-lefties. Have we more lawyers than statisticly probable? Just askin’. [/QUOTE] Dunno about that, but we certainly do seem to have our fair share of people willing to say “sure, I may have been talking totally out of my ass when I first started posting in this thread, but now that we have some actual facts and I turn out to be right, then neener, neener, neener.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/8 "2006-09-01T19:39:28Z")
[Hey **Jodi** , how’m I doin?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7737683&postcount=7) ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/9 "2006-09-01T19:40:45Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] It seems you do want to bust my chops. Note to self: never take a lawyer at her word, even when it is in writing. After all that, it turns out I was right after all, with respect to the OP who lives in New York. Let us examine what an [attorney licensed to practice in that state has to say about non-compete contracts](http://www.myemploymentlawyer.com/mel/answer.php3?answer_id=959): So save your windbaggery for the courtroom, Counselor. I am not impressed. If you don’t like it, call the Internet Police. And you will just have to stick around if you want to find out if I am likely to “shut the hell up” just because some ambulance chaser gets her panties in twist. [/QUOTE] I still don’t see how pointing out a statement that says what a court would “usually” do is the same as telling the OP that they are free to take whatever job they want without being concerned about potential consequences. Had you said that the OP has a good chance of success based on prior decisions, I’d be more inclined to back you. But you don’t seem to be recognizing that distinction at all, and since the OP may well be facing a lawsuit, I think Jodi is correct in trying to make sure there is a proper understanding of the risks involved. ---
**Author:** ![Jean\_Poutine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a5b964/32.png) [@Jean\_Poutine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jean_Poutine)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/10 "2006-09-01T19:42:15Z")
Fear Itself is right, I would love to find an actual example of a judge telling a person they cannot accept a 10K increase in pay, especially when the original job refused to match it, non-compete clause or not. My job has them, and my lawyer boss knows they are shit and has never even thought about pursuing the dozen or so employees who have broken it. I think they use it just to scare the more timid employees from breaking it. I can have my neighbors sign a form stating if they step foot on my lawn I have the right to shoot them, but we all know that’s not the case. Ridiculous example, yes, but the principle is the same. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/11 "2006-09-01T19:44:08Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] “You have the right to accept any job, anywhere, any time.” [/QUOTE] So this is still idiotic, though, right? Because your own cite actually contadicts this statement, so what you came here to say is you’re sorry and you were wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/12 "2006-09-01T19:47:17Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] So this is still idiotic, though, right? Because your own cite actually contadicts this statement, so what you came here to say is you’re sorry and you were wrong? [/QUOTE] Nope. I honestly believe I have the legal right to take any job, anywhere, at any time. If that means I must defend that belief in court, I am willing to do that. Bring it on, if you dare. Few do. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/13 "2006-09-01T19:52:45Z")
I have to side with **Fear Itself** to a large degree. Ask for legal, medical or financial advice on this board at your own risk. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/14 "2006-09-01T19:55:06Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Nope. I honestly believe I have the legal right to take any job, anywhere, at any time. If that means I must defend that belief in court, I am willing to do that. Bring it on, if you dare. Few do. [/QUOTE] I’m sure your average professional athlete will be thrilled to hear that the collective barganing agreements are null and void. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/15 "2006-09-01T19:55:16Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] After all that, it turns out I was right after all, with respect to the OP who lives in New York. [/QUOTE] No, you are not right, and it is not good advice. It is true that most states have a history of finding for the employee in cases involving a non-compete. However, I’d think twice about advising someone to knowingly break agreements they have entered into because there is a likelihood they could get away with it. There is always the possibility that the non-compete will be upheld, or that the former employer can exercise other options (besides blocking the employment) against the employee. The simplest option that company has, and I’ve seen this happen, is to call a senior person with integrity at the pouching company and ask that they step in order to maintain good relations between the two companies. If this senior person agrees that maintaining the inter-company relationship is important, the employee is sunk. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/16 "2006-09-01T19:56:15Z")
> [@](#): > > I have to side with Fear Itself to a large degree. Ask for legal, medical or financial advice on this board at your own risk. And I have to side with **Jodi** to a large degree. Don’t provide advice – especially in the form of sweeping, blanket statements – if you don’t know whereof the fuck you speak. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/17 "2006-09-01T20:02:01Z")
[QUOTE=Waverly] There is always the possibility that the non-compete will be upheld, or that the former employer can exercise other options (besides blocking the employment) against the employee. [/QUOTE] So what? Do lawyers offer a money back guarantee if the court rules against their client? If everyone posting here be absolutely sure they are 100% right before they offer an opinion, this is going to become a very boring place. But at least the attorneys wouldn’t have to worry about competition from an internet messageboard; I’m sure it is cutting into their billable hours. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/18 "2006-09-01T20:07:05Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] If everyone posting here be absolutely sure they are 100% right before they offer an opinion, this is going to become a very boring place. [/QUOTE] It would be enough if you checked to ensure you weren’t 100% wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/19 "2006-09-01T20:09:30Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Nope. I honestly believe I have the legal right to take any job, anywhere, at any time. If that means I must defend that belief in court, I am willing to do that. Bring it on, if you dare. Few do. [/QUOTE] Starting with a blank slate, you do have this right. There are conditions, legally enforceable and otherwise, under which you willingly waive that right. Without knowing whether the OP was subject to any of those conditions, you stated categorically that she wasn’t. That’s just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105/20 "2006-09-01T20:10:34Z")
[QUOTE=Waverly] It would be enough if you checked to ensure you weren’t 100% wrong. [/QUOTE] Semantics. You want a guarantee before anybody ventures an opinion. That is just stupid. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-itself-dont-give-legal-advice-when-you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about/371105.md?page=2)