# Fear of Congressional D's leaking Baghdadi raid, realistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555 "2019-10-27T19:09:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/61 "2019-10-28T23:03:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No, unless you’re determined to argue by strawmen and excluded middles. If so, have at it with my blessing. > > Was this a significant attack or not, targeting a specific high-profile individual? Trump wants to establish that this is a HUUGE-ly bigly deal, simply too _important_ to give congressional leaders a heads-up, so significant that it’s worth a post-raid staging of the situation room for a photo-op. If it had gone wrong, missed the target, ended up aggravating the situation, do we trust Trump to be honest about it? I don’t believe we can or should, and if there had been Russian casualties (oh, wait, the _Russians_ knew about it), shouldn’t Congressional leadership be at least vaguely aware that a very big die had just been cast? Why are these people in charge of military budgets and yet not important to keep apprised of significant military operations? Got any evidence Pelosi is as blabber-mouthed as, say, Trump himself? > > I get what you’re trying to do, I just can’t take it seriously. If this was a run-of-the-mill operation not important enough (even if it had gone wrong) to inform Congressional leadership, fine. Somebody should let Trump know. I think he’s about to give himself the Medal of Honor. My point is that while yes, the outcome of the operation - the death of al-Baghdadi - was indeed a “big fucking deal”, there’s no reason to think that the risk of collateral damage / sparking a war with Russia, etc, was any more significant than various other operations we undertake within Syria on a routine basis, and without notifying Congress of with any significant level of detail beforehand. That risk seems to be the criteria _you_ have adopted. If that’s what you’re concerned about, then I can’t see any real reason to notify Congress ahead of time, or at least no more reason to notify Congress of this al-Baghdadi raid than any mundane airstrike. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/62 "2019-10-28T23:12:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My point is that while yes, the outcome of the operation - the death of al-Baghdadi - was indeed a “big fucking deal”, there’s no reason to think that the risk of collateral damage / sparking a war with Russia, etc, was any more significant than various other operations we undertake within Syria on a routine basis, and without notifying Congress of with any significant level of detail beforehand. That risk seems to be the criteria _you_ have adopted. If that’s what you’re concerned about, then I can’t see any real reason to notify Congress ahead of time, or at least no more reason to notify Congress of this al-Baghdadi raid than any mundane airstrike. I suppose I’ll ask, do you consider this event to have slipped through the tiny window where things are both super-important and yet also completely mundane and unworthy of notice, or do you just figure it’s unnecessary to inform Congress of _anything_, so long as the congresspeople are Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/63 "2019-10-29T01:17:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My point is that while yes, the outcome of the operation - the death of al-Baghdadi - was indeed a “big fucking deal”, there’s no reason to think that the risk of collateral damage / sparking a war with Russia, etc, was any more significant than various other operations we undertake within Syria on a routine basis, and without notifying Congress of with any significant level of detail beforehand. Yeah… why? I simply don’t see any reason to trust Trump’s word on this, and even if we decide that established courtesies are optional… it’s _Trump_. Why are you taking his word for this? Hasn’t he lied to you so often that his motives become suspect by default? > [@](#): > > That risk seems to be the criteria _you_ have adopted. If that’s what you’re concerned about, then I can’t see any real reason to notify Congress ahead of time, or at least no more reason to notify Congress of this al-Baghdadi raid than any mundane airstrike. I’m confident my position is better reasoned than yours, because if it was a Democrat president with Republican congressional leadership, I’d still think it was a good idea to keep them informed. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/64 "2019-10-29T02:11:28Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I suppose I’ll ask, do you consider this event to have slipped through the tiny window where things are both super-important and yet also completely mundane and unworthy of notice, or do you just figure it’s unnecessary to inform Congress of _anything_, so long as the congresspeople are Democrats? I don’t think there’s anything about this operation that required the President to notify Congressional leadership of it beforehand. At least, I haven’t seen any information to indicate that it was required. It seems that the dems are sore about it not having been done, but I can’t figure out why, other than that they’re generally sore about virtually anything and everything President Trump does, and how he does it, and why, and where, and when, and with who. As a matter of courtesy, I can see why it might be a nice thing to do, but Pelosi and Schumer have chosen to pursue a toxic, vitriolic relationship with President Trump rather than a courteous and nice one, with the unsurprising result that they should no longer expect courtesies from him. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/65 "2019-10-29T02:41:29Z")
Lol ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/66 "2019-10-29T02:59:55Z")
Yes, it’s terrible how Pelosi and Schumer are so impolite to the person who has been hurling kindergarten-level insults at them since day one. > [@LAZombie](#): > > I truly believe that liberals will do anything to hurt Trump including sabotaging a mission to kill terrorists. And yet it was Trump himself who sabotaged all the Pentagon’s careful planning of the mission. Funny that. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/67 "2019-10-29T03:07:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah… why? I simply don’t see any reason to trust Trump’s word on this, and even if we decide that established courtesies are optional… it’s _Trump_. Why are you taking his word for this? … What “this” do you think I’m taking President Trump’s word on? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/68 "2019-10-29T03:11:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What “this” do you think I’m taking President Trump’s word on? That not informing congressional leadership was a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/69 "2019-10-29T03:35:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That not informing congressional leadership was a good idea. Ahhhh, then I’m not “taking his word on this”. He and you seem to have a difference of opinion on whether it was a good idea or not. He’s the elected president and in this case, AFAICT, he’s free to act on his opinion on the matter. I don’t have any particularly strong feelings about whether it was a good idea or not. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/70 "2019-10-29T03:43:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > … so significant that it’s worth a post-raid staging of the situation room for a photo-op. … BTW, how did you conclude that the photo was staged post-raid? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/71 "2019-10-29T04:00:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > BTW, how did you conclude that the photo was staged post-raid? It looks staged (not candid, certainly, the way the Obama-era bin Laden raid picture looks), and there are reports that the photo was taken about 90 minutes after the raid, during which Trump was golfing. It may turn out none of this is true, I’m open to the possibility. On a related note, was it a good idea for Obama to inform congressional leadership of the above-mentioned bin Laden raid? If not, why not? If so, why is the situation different? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/72 "2019-10-29T04:07:34Z")
On further checking, it looks like [Politifact is disputing the claim that the picture is staged](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2019/oct/28/white-houses-photo-trump-during-baghdadi-r/), so I’ll cheerfully withdraw judgement until the matter is settled. I do not consider this in any way a positive for Trump, just a negative returning to neutral. I would still like the second paragraph of post 71 to be addressed, if it’s not too much trouble. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/73 "2019-10-29T04:21:48Z")
Yes, [Pete Souza](https://twitter.com/PeteSouza), a photographer for Obama, seems to be the original source of that erroneous claim: > [@](#): > > The raid, as reported, took place at 3:30PM Washington time. The photo, as shown in the camera IPTC data, was taken at “17:05:24”. He has since backtracked quite a bit: > [@](#): > > It’s entirely possible that the raid was still going on at 5:05pm. Before drawing definite conclusions about the photo, reporters need to nail down the actual timeline of the raid. > [@](#): > > Just to be clear, I didn’t say it was staged. Trump himself said he didn’t arrive to the Situation Room until “around 5pm”. So it’s definitely possible the photo was taken during the raid. > [@](#): > > The latest reporting from the NYT: the helicopters left Iraq at 5PM (Washington time), and they reported it was about a 70-minute flight to Syria. So actual raid had to happen some time after 6:10PM. I suppose you’re free to consider it still unsettled, but this looks like one of those silly claims that libs jumped all over that turned out to be false, and pretty obviously so. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/74 "2019-10-29T04:24:50Z")
The second paragraph of post 71 is still addressable. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/75 "2019-10-29T04:39:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The second paragraph of post 71 is still addressable. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > … On a related note, was it a good idea for Obama to inform congressional leadership of the above-mentioned bin Laden raid? If not, why not? If so, why is the situation different? I thought I already addressed this in post #50: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > For the raid into Pakistan, a nuclear power and ostensible ally, to get OBL, this makes sense. We’ve been bombing and raiding over much of Syria for years now. Trying to notify Congress of each individual air strike or raid, when they’re already being done in that country at a fairly high volume, seems impractical. … If that wasn’t clear enough, some key differences I see: 1. Pakistan is armed with nuclear weapons and Syria is not. 2. Pakistan is an ally (ostensibly) and Syria is not. 3. The raid into Pakistan represented a significant escalation of force (above and beyond the previous plethora of drone strikes in the tribal regions). The raid in Syria did not (there had already been [various commando raids in Syria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_special_forces_raids_during_the_Syrian_Civil_War)). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/76 "2019-10-29T04:56:37Z")
So Obama did the right thing, and you’re trusting Trump to use his best judgement? Excuse me, I’ll be chuckling in the corner for a few minutes. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/77 "2019-10-29T05:07:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So Obama did the right thing, and you’re trusting Trump to use his best judgement? … As I noted, there are some significant differences with a commando raid into Pakistan that made it rise on the (completely arbitrary) “HD-thinks-this-merits-a-notification-to-Congress-beforehand” scale. I don’t know if I’d say I’m “trusting” President Trump so much as noting that he has the authority to decide that, not you or I. I’m curious about your opinion though: you seem to think that both the OBL and Al-Baghdadi raids merited a notification to Congress beforehand, or at least that it was a “good idea”. Are there some examples of military actions that you think it unnecessary? For example, you seemed to take issue with the idea that a president would need to notify Congress about “each individual air strike or raid”, but if the Al-Baghdadi raid is above your line, and other raids and airstrikes below it, what’s the difference you see there? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/78 "2019-10-29T05:29:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > For example, you seemed to take issue with the idea that a president would need to notify Congress about “each individual air strike or raid” You’re the one who brought the quoted phrase into the discussion, not I. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/79 "2019-10-29T12:59:06Z")
I’m not sure why I’m wading into this mess, but Trump did inform members of congress, but just on the GOP side. He also apparently informed Lindsay Graham, who is not a leader of either party in either chamber. I think it’s common to inform the party leaders from each chamber (Majority and Minority leader in the Senate, and Speaker and Minority leader in the House). Trump didn’t do that – he informed the GOP side and irrelevant others in the GOP. If this wasn’t important enough to inform the congressional leaders, that’s fine (I think it was, given the post-event fanfare), but that’s not what happened. He just left the Democrats out. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555/80 "2019-10-29T15:14:09Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m not sure why I’m wading into this mess, but Trump did inform members of congress, but just on the GOP side. He also apparently informed Lindsay Graham, who is not a leader of either party in either chamber. I think it’s common to inform the party leaders from each chamber (Majority and Minority leader in the Senate, and Speaker and Minority leader in the House). Trump didn’t do that – he informed the GOP side and irrelevant others in the GOP. > > If this wasn’t important enough to inform the congressional leaders, that’s fine (I think it was, given the post-event fanfare), but that’s not what happened. He just left the Democrats out. And this is back to the OP. Trump obviously determined that it was important enough to tell some members of Congress, but only those of his party. How can this be justified? (And stating that the Democrats are leakers is not a justification.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fear-of-congressional-ds-leaking-baghdadi-raid-realistic/842555.md?page=5)