# Fearing God as Opposed to Loving God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2001, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708 "2001-08-23T13:09:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![peewee\_RotA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@peewee\_RotA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peewee_RotA)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/21 "2001-08-23T19:47:27Z")
I didn’t mean to preach but some things are the way they are… like if someone who dies and isn’t saved goes to hell… though their families are griveing, that’s the cold hard facts… somepeople avoid telling people the cold facts… and call that preaching… I was trying to explain how I got to it ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/22 "2001-08-23T19:59:06Z")
> [@](#): > > like if someone who dies and isn’t saved goes to hell I _love_ this idea! Nothing makes me happier than eternal punishment of innocents! ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/23 "2001-08-23T20:13:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I didn’t mean to preach but some things are the way they are… like if someone who dies and isn’t saved goes to hell… though their families are griveing, that’s the cold hard facts… somepeople avoid telling people the cold facts… and call that preaching… I was trying to explain how I got to it You seem a little confused Peewee, so I’ll help you out. This is an _opinion_, not a fact. You may believe it with all your heart, but many other rational, intelligent people disagree. The evidence for your beliefs is not sufficient for it to reach the level of fact. How would you feel if a Buddhist came in and said: like if someone who dies and hasn’t reached nirvana gets reincarnated…that’s the cold hard facts. You’d probably think he was being a bit ridiculous, wouldn’t you? You’d instantly realize that what he was stating was his beliefs about how the world works, not a universally acknowledged truth. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/24 "2001-08-24T04:33:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CnoteChris \* > \*\*The first part of the question essentially is this: Are we supposed to _fear_ God, or simply be in _awe_ of Him? > > If my interpretation of that phrase was correct (Which, to be honest with you, is still a bit murky to me. Is it fear, awe, or something else?) and it is in fact _fear_, then the second question is: Why do we need to _fear_ a loving, caring, etc., etc., God?\*\* ::raising voice to be heard above the din:: **Chris** , I think I can answer your question (from a Jewish perspective, anyway). As I posted above, the phrase “fear of God” stems from a mistranslation and should be “reverence of God.” Once we’ve established _that_, your second question kind of fizzles away. On various holidays and, most notably, during the period of repentance between _Rosh Hashanna_ (the New Year) and _Yom Kippur_ (the Day of Atonement), Jews include a prayer called _Avinu Malkeinu_ in their daily prayers. The prayer’s title means, “Our Father, Our King,” and embodies the same dichotomy you are struggling with. God is our Father - he loves us and expects us to love him. But he is also our King and, as such, deserves reverence and awe. These are not really contradictory attitudes… the analogy of a young child relating to his/her father is an apt one: my 4 year old son must sometimes do as I say simply because he fears punishment; I can’t keep him out of the street any other way. But, other times, the relationship I have with him is much warmer, softer and more loving… when we snuggle together over a story or a study together. I don’t mean to be preachy… I began by explaining that this answer comes from a certain religious perspective. But, I think it answers the question in your OP. **IzzyR** , you posted: \*\* > [@](#): > > I would be inclined to think that in the cited example of Abraham in might refer to a literal fear of God, i.e. violating his commandments.\*\* The fact of the matter is that the verse in question does contain the word _Yirah_ and not the word _Pachad_. I know and understand the the phrase is commonly translated as “fear of God,” but I maintain that is an error. In the story in _Genesis 20:11_, _Avraham_ is explaining to _Avimelech_ why he lied and told everyone that _Sara_ was his sister and not his wife. _Rashi_ explains that his answer means that he felt this deception neccesary because he feared that the townspeople would kill him to get at his wife, demonstrating a communal disregard for Moral Law (God’s law). I don’t find this episode particularly illuminating in terms of this debate - true to form, I find myself focusing on the liguistics: If the phrase meant “fear,” it would use the word _pachad_. But it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/25 "2001-08-24T13:28:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sdimbert \* > I don’t find this episode particularly illuminating in terms of this debate - true to form, I find myself focusing on the liguistics: If the phrase meant “fear,” it would use the word _pachad_. But it doesn’t. You seem to be making the assumption that _yirah_ is not (or rarely) used to mean fear. This is simply not so. To chose one random example that springs to mind, when Jacob heard that Esau was coming to meet him with 400 men, the Bible says _vayirah Yacov m’od_. It does not mean that he revered or was in awe of Esau - rather that he was afraid of him. There are many such examples. Yirah can mean awe or fear, depending on context. (I seem to recall a _Rashi_ discussing the difference between _yirah_ and _pachad_ - either in _Eichah_ or in _D’vorim_. IIRC, one is fear of a faraway danger, and one of a close one). ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/26 "2001-08-24T14:49:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\* > To chose one random example that springs to mind, when Jacob heard that Esau was coming to meet him with 400 men, the Bible says _vayirah Yacov m’od_. It does not mean that he revered or was in awe of Esau - rather that he was afraid of him. There are many such examples. > > Yirah can mean awe or fear, depending on context. > > (I seem to recall a _Rashi_ discussing the difference between _yirah_ and _pachad_ - either in _Eichah_ or in _D’vorim_. IIRC, one is fear of a faraway danger, and one of a close one). \*\* ::stroking beard and gazing Talumidcally off into space:: Hmmmmm… ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/27 "2001-08-24T15:19:29Z")
Sorry I am unable to particpate in this debate on a higher level, but I just had to say that I sure hope my kids don’t fear me. In fact, I’m not sure what ather emotions I would less like my kids to have towards me. And, no, I did not fear my parents either. Yes, I could kill them, torture them, abuse them, destroy their self confidence (the closest this worthless mortal can come to eternal damnation in a lake of fire.) But if I were to do so, I’d be a monster. No? ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/28 "2001-08-24T15:27:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > **…I sure hope my kids don’t fear me. In fact, I’m not sure what ather emotions I would less like my kids to have towards me. And, no, I did not fear my parents either.** I think that this boils down to a philosophical debate and hinges on a single question: Do you think that it is _ever_ justifiable for a parent to punish a child physically? If so, then the threat of physical punsishment instills fear into a child. If not, then your methods of discipline work in a different way. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/29 "2001-08-24T15:40:44Z")
I don’t think a child’s desire to avoid predictable responses to transgressions, or an acknowledgment of authority, is necessarily the equivalent of “fearing” the parent or guardian. If you break a law, do you “fear” getting caught, or do you just really anticipate that as being an unpleasant development? Do you “fear” the cops when you exceed the speed limit, or do you just really hope they are otherwise ooccupied at the time, and really have ways you would prefer spending $50-100 instead of paying a ticket? No, I do not personally disfavor all corporal punishment. And, though my parents never “beat” me, I do recall occasional spankings, soap in the mouth, and even a crack or 2 across the face. Didn’t make me “fear” them. I’m sure you’d agree that a person in authority can harm a child in ways far more damaging and permanent that measured “physical punishment.” Moreover, unlike a swat on the butt followed by a hug and kissing away the tears, damnation to hell is forever. ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/30 "2001-08-24T15:48:37Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Dinsdale_ > …I sure hope my kids don’t fear me. In fact, I’m not sure what other emotions I would less like my kids to have towards me. And, no, I did not fear my parents either. I find this very interesting in light of the original question for this thread. I have had conversations with others (in the non-virtual world) about how people’s attitude towards fearing/loving God tends to line up with their attitude towards fearing/loving their parents. Maybe kids imprint an automatic authority response based on their early relationship with a care provider. Maybe parents emulate their ideal conception of authority when dealing with their children. Maybe both, maybe neither. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/31 "2001-08-25T00:26:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sdimbert \* > I don’t find this episode particularly illuminating in terms of this debate - true to form, I find myself focusing on the liguistics: If the phrase meant “fear,” it would use the word _pachad_. But it doesn’t. \*\* You mean the way [Psalms 119:120](http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/998724624.html#120) does? “My flesh trembleth for fear [_pachad_] of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments.” ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2001, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/32 "2001-08-27T00:12:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > (I seem to recall a _Rashi_ discussing the difference between _yirah_ and _pachad_ - either in _Eichah_ or in _D’vorim_. IIRC, one is fear of a faraway danger, and one of a close one). Looked it up. _Ekev_ 11:25. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by sdimbert \* > > I don’t find this episode particularly illuminating in terms of this debate - true to form, I find myself focusing on the liguistics: If the phrase meant “fear,” it would use the word _pachad_. But it doesn’t. \*\* > > You mean the way [Psalms 119:120](http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/998724624.html#120) does? “My flesh trembleth for fear [_pachad_] of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments.” \*\* In that particular passage, the preceding sentence discusses God’s punishing the evildoers, which leads into the sentence that you cite. I don’t know if it is such a good comparison. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708/33 "2001-08-28T02:35:00Z")
Well, the relevant section is [Psalm 119, verses 113-120](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PS+119:113-120&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on): > [@](#): > > I hate double-minded men, but I love your law. > You are my refuge and my shield; I have put my hope in your word. > Away from me, you evildoers, that I may keep the commands of my God! > Sustain me according to your promise, and I will live; do not let my hopes be dashed. > Uphold me, and I will be delivered; I will always have regard for your decrees. > You reject all who stray from your decrees, for their deceitfulness is in vain. > All the wicked of the earth you discard like dross; therefore I love your statutes. > My flesh trembles in fear of you; I stand in awe of your laws. Ayin The narrator is clearly a righteous man, yet he “fears” God, and the Hebrew word used to describe that feeling of fear is _pachad_. Sdimbert appeared to be arguing that the Bible doesn’t really say to “fear” God with the connotations of the English word, but rather to “have reverence for” God, and that the word which would be straightforwardly translated as “fear” would be _pachad_. Here we have an example of a righteous man who “fears” God–_pachad_–and this is clearly a good and righteous thing to do. I don’t know that the distinction is really all that great in English, actually. “Awesome” wasn’t always just valley speak. Human monarchs were once called “dread sovereign lords”. I think citizens of a democratic republic may have trouble really feeling the concept of awe of/respect for/reverent fear of a king. Similarly, people who have grown up in 20th Century societies probably also have a tough time with the mindset of people who were children in a literally patriarchal society. Fathers in those days were more than just “dear old dad”, and Bill Cosby routines–“I brought you into this world, I can take you out of it”–probably would have had a rather different edge to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fearing-god-as-opposed-to-loving-god/77708.md?page=1)