# Feb 2003 club fire (100 killed) - owners getting off pretty damned easy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 21, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566 "2006-09-21T15:08:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/1 "2006-09-21T15:08:18Z")
In February, 2003, a nightclub in Rhode Island, “The Station”, erupted into an inferno when the band “Great White” used pyrotechnics which ignited the club’s acoustic soundproofing foam. Earlier this year, the band’s technician, Daniel Biechele was sentenced to 4 years in prison. Personally, I think Biecele was not to blame for this disaster but rather it was the cheapskate owners. Marc Philip, a sound technician for another band that previously played there stated: > [@](#): > > Acoustic foam is an expensive specialty item, and some club owners choose much-cheaper bedding pads instead Here is the link to that article from 2003 concerning the club’s soundproofing: > **[The Providence Journal: Local News, Politics & Sports in Providence, RI](https://www.providencejournal.com/)** > > Get the latest breaking news, sports, entertainment and obituaries in Providence, RI from The Providence Journal. Now for the 2 owners of the club. One is getting 4 years in prison and the oher will get 500 hours of community service. > **[The Providence Journal: Local News, Politics & Sports in Providence, RI](https://www.providencejournal.com/)** > > Get the latest breaking news, sports, entertainment and obituaries in Providence, RI from The Providence Journal. The fact that 100 people died seems to indicate _serious_ infractions of fire codes. Considering the flammibility of the soundproofing, (and the 100 deaths), don’t you think these 2 guys are getting very lenient sentences? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/2 "2006-09-21T15:18:26Z")
The person setting up the pyrotechnics should have been aware of the structural conditions of the area where they were being used and he _is_ to blame for this incident. After all, there was nothing wrong with the “cheaper” sound proofing _until_ it started being set on fire by the pyrotechical display. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/3 "2006-09-21T15:22:00Z")
Ahhh… missed this line: > [@](#): > > For the Derderians\*, the state charged they had violated the fire code by putting up flammable soundproofing foam. They will enter their no contest pleas to the 100 counts of misdemeanor manslaughter. Despite the name, misdemeanor manslaughter is a felony. The owners share some of the blame, but I can’t see that they share any more than the “expert” Great White hired for their show. \*The owners. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/4 "2006-09-21T15:36:26Z")
The RI AG agrees with you, **wolfmeister**. However, your quote leaves the wrong impression about The Station. While it may have been in disrepair, neither article stated that the club used bedding pads, and it noted that acoustic foam is not necessarily flame retardant. > [@](#): > > Even acoustic foam, however, comes in different varieties: Acoustical Surfaces Inc., for example, a Minnesota company, sells polyurethane foam labeled with a warning that it is “flammable and may emit toxic fumes,” as well as melamine foam that is classified as a Class A fire retardant. > > Auralex, an Indiana company whose products are sold by Guitar Center stores in this region, makes acoustic foams rated as Class B, fire-safe enough that a flame would extinguish quickly. > > All the above products look about the same: like egg-crate pads, except with pyramid-shaped peaks rather than the rounded shapes on bedding. **People familiar with The Station’s soundproofing foam said they believe it was pyramid-shaped – meaning real acoustic foam – but nobody was sure.** > … > But regardless of what the foam was, everyone interviewed familiar with the club agreed that the small size of the stage and the low ceiling – they estimated 10 to 15 feet – would have sufficed to convince any reasonable person not to light pyrotechnics there. > > “With all due respect, you’d have to be a real idiot not to know this probably isn’t a good idea,” said Joe Magnanti, whose band, Hawkins Rise, had played at the club several times, and who attended shows there frequently. The first article does far more to place the blame on the band’s pyrotechnics rather than the foam. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/5 "2006-09-21T15:37:45Z")
Me too, **JohnT** , and I read through it twice. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/6 "2006-09-21T15:41:59Z")
I agree with John T. The owners violated the fire code by putting up cheap foam. The pyrotechnician lit a fire in the space without verifying that it was safe to do so. I’m shocked that we would expect the owners to get a more severe sentence than the guy who deliberately created the flames that started the fire. It’s the pyro guy’s responsibility to ensure that it is safe to use his pyro. The only way I could see giving them the same sentence is if they told the pyro that everything was fireproof. I’m not sure how I feel about letting one brother take the rap for the other. I could see one getting a more severe sentence for more culpability, but not deliberately taking all the jail time so little bro can avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/7 "2006-09-21T16:19:11Z")
It’s the pyrotechnician’s fault? No, it doesn’t seem that way to me. Let’s suppose a small fire had started for some other reason (a carelessly discarded cigarette) and eventually it set fire to the foam. Would it be the “careless cigarette discarder” that would be to blame? I think they used cheap foam that eventually would have led to some catastrophic fire no matter who or what started it. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/8 "2006-09-21T16:31:04Z")
[QUOTE=wolf\_meister] It’s the pyrotechnician’s fault? No, it doesn’t seem that way to me. Let’s suppose a small fire had started for some other reason (a carelessly discarded cigarette) and eventually it set fire to the foam. Would it be the “careless cigarette discarder” that would be to blame? I think they used cheap foam that eventually would have led to some catastrophic fire no matter who or what started it. [/QUOTE] I don’t know about the rest of it, but why wouldn’t the careless cigarette discarder be blamed, if they had ashtrays? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/9 "2006-09-21T17:24:13Z")
[QUOTE=wolf\_meister] It’s the pyrotechnician’s fault? No, it doesn’t seem that way to me. Let’s suppose a small fire had started for some other reason (a carelessly discarded cigarette) and eventually it set fire to the foam. Would it be the “careless cigarette discarder” that would be to blame? [/QUOTE] Yes, just as a cigarette in Yosemite that starts an enormous forest fire is the fault of the butt-leaver. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/10 "2006-09-21T17:27:19Z")
[QUOTE=Anaamika] I don’t know about the rest of it, but why wouldn’t the careless cigarette discarder be blamed, if they had ashtrays? [/QUOTE] Because it’s not reasonable to assume that accidentally dropping a cigarette will cause a fire that will kill a hundred people. Honestly, this is the absolute basics of tort law. Shouldn’t most people know something about this? Besides, isn’t that sort of obvious? The line is, admittedly, sometimes blurry, but people _aren’t_ legally held legally accountable if they engage in an action that can’t be reasonably foreseen to have a negative result. It sure sounds like both the club owners and the pyrotechnician share some responsibility for this. It doesn’t sound like it was a safe place to engage in pyrotechnics - but at the same time, accidents happen, which is precisely why things like building codes and fire codes exist. If, hypothetically, someone built a structure so flammable that a carelessly discarded - or accidentally dropped - cigarette could quickly cause a blaze that killed a hundred people, they would certainly be held responsible. It doesn’t sound like this was _quite_ that bad, but if the owner covered the walls with eminently flammable material, he’s obviously got some share of the responsibility for the results. Why is it necessary to designate one single person as THE GUY TO BLAME[sup]TM[/sup] when multiple people’s actions went into causing this event? And why should _only_ the person who commits the last act proximate to an accident be held accountable? That’s a useful idea in some cases, but isn’t it pretty obvious that it’s a principle with some exceptions? Imagine that I set an extremely delicate vase on the very edge of a shelf that’s a tad unstable. It’s a beautiful vase and a priceless Ming Dynasty antique. It’s painted with a lovely crane motif. Now, imagine if Anaamika walked by and carelessly bumped into the shelf. The vase falls and breaks. Is Anaamika entirely to blame? Of course not. I could foresee, in placing my Ming vase on a precarious shelf, that it is highly likely that some minor accident would eventually knock it off. Sure, Anaamika shouldn’t walk around bumping into things - and she might share some of the responsibility, particularly if she was being careless in some way. But just because hers is the proximate cause of the vase’s destruction doesn’t mean it’s rational to blame the entire event on her. Equally, if someone builds a club in such a way that it’s particularly vulnerable to fire, invites crowds of people, and has musicians perform (and wasn’t he aware of the band’s intention to use pyrotechnics? I have to imagine that bands usually check with the manager of the venue before doing things like that.), isn’t he partially responsible if an accident happens? A certain amount of care is expected in someone who makes a facility open to the public. Not covering the walls with extremely flammable material strikes me as a pretty reasonable standard. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/11 "2006-09-21T17:28:46Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Yes, just as a cigarette in Yosemite that starts an enormous forest fire is the fault of the butt-leaver. [/QUOTE] Actually, a lot of people would say that it’s the fault of poor forest management practices on the part of the U.S. government. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/12 "2006-09-21T17:35:01Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Actually, a lot of people would say that it’s the fault of poor forest management practices on the part of the U.S. government. [/QUOTE] Really? Why would they say that? Is the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/13 "2006-09-21T17:37:00Z")
Fucking piece of shit. Anyway, to continue: Is the U.S. government supposed to be able to have rangers or volunteers stationed at 10-foot intervals across thousands of acres of National Park to ensure nobody flicks a cigarette? Or are they supposed to somehow make nature non-flammable? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/14 "2006-09-21T17:38:08Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Because it’s not reasonable to assume that accidentally dropping a cigarette will cause a fire that will kill a hundred people. Honestly, this is the absolute basics of tort law. Shouldn’t most people know something about this? Besides, isn’t that sort of obvious? The line is, admittedly, sometimes blurry, but people _aren’t_ legally held legally accountable if they engage in an action that can’t be reasonably foreseen to have a negative result. [/QUOTE] Thank you for the description. And thankfully, I don’t know much about it at all. Thankfully because I have never remotely been in such a situation - neither having dropped the proverbial cigarette nor plastered my walls with, say, paper. As for the rest of it, this quote: > [@](#): > > But regardless of what the foam was, everyone interviewed familiar with the club agreed that the small size of the stage and the low ceiling – they estimated 10 to 15 feet – would have sufficed to convince any reasonable person not to light pyrotechnics there. Makes me go huh? Didn’t the guy running the place know they were doing pyrotechnics and say something ahead of time? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/15 "2006-09-21T17:42:50Z")
[QUOTE=woodstockbirdybird] Is the U.S. government supposed to be able to have rangers or volunteers stationed at 10-foot intervals across thousands of acres of National Park to ensure nobody flicks a cigarette? Or are they supposed to somehow make nature non-flammable? [/QUOTE] I think the argument is that our conservative fire-prevention methods result in a larger than natural build-up of dead, highly flammable material on forest floors. As a result, we get far vaster fires than would otherwise happen, just more rarely. By contrast, sporadic smaller burn-offs would be the more natural process, periodically reducing the available fuel without a catastrophic all-consuming inferno. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/16 "2006-09-21T17:48:27Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] I think the argument is that our conservative fire-prevention methods result in a larger than natural build-up of dead, highly flammable material on forest floors. As a result, we get far vaster fires than would otherwise happen, just more rarely. By contrast, sporadic smaller burn-offs would be the more natural process, periodically reducing the available fuel without a catastrophic all-consuming inferno. [/QUOTE] Ah, thanks. Even so, any dipshit old enough to hold a cigarette between his/her lips knows that grass/brush/etc. is liable to catch fire if a flaming fucking smoke is tossed on it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/17 "2006-09-21T17:56:34Z")
The club owners are businessmen who run a bar with a stage. The pyrotechnician is a person (supposedly) trained in the safe use of fire. It is the pyro’s job to assess the stage and surroundings and decide whether or not it is safe to use fire. The entire point of having a pyrotechnician is to safely use fire in your show. I don’t think a couple of businessmen are qualified to know whether or not it is safe, especially since they’re not working with this pyro package day after day. The dipshit with the cigarette has also not been trained in the use of fire, nor has he been entrusted with the safe use of fire in that environment. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/18 "2006-09-21T18:09:51Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Actually, a lot of people would say that it’s the fault of poor forest management practices on the part of the U.S. government. [/QUOTE] Well, for me there would be plenty of blame to throw around. But cigarette smokers are waving fire around. I can’t exonerate them if they catch something on fire. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/19 "2006-09-21T18:13:43Z")
[QUOTE=Anaamika] Thank you for the description. And thankfully, I don’t know much about it at all. Thankfully because I have never remotely been in such a situation - neither having dropped the proverbial cigarette nor plastered my walls with, say, paper. [/QUOTE] I think you miss my point. Which is that I’m still pissed about my goddamn vase, Anaamika. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566/20 "2006-09-21T18:14:58Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Because it’s not reasonable to assume that accidentally dropping a cigarette will cause a fire that will kill a hundred people. Honestly, this is the absolute basics of tort law. … Not covering the walls with extremely flammable material strikes me as a pretty reasonable standard. [/QUOTE] Since we’re not talking about an accidental cigarette fire here, it _is_ perfectly reasonable to assume that setting off exploding flash pots within a building could start a fire unless done properly. Blame the owners all you want, I just don’t see the case where the pyrotechnic superviser gets a pass. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-2003-club-fire-100-killed-owners-getting-off-pretty-damned-easy/373566.md?page=2)