Both of you, dial it back. Not every discussion need descend into petty pissing contests.
[/moderating]
Here we go again.
Why I Love America by Ann Hedonia
“We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable; that all men are created equal and independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable, among which are the preservation of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”
Those were some radical sentiments for their time. The founders of our country came out of a time where it was believed that your place in society and the world was the divine manifestation of God’s will and plan and it was not your place to try and change it. It was believed that your husband, your king, the lord of your manor was inherently better than you and that this hierarchy needed to be accepted. The idea of pursuit of happiness was also radical - the prevailing idea was that your life was the property of your king and your God. Personal happiness had no place in the equation.
But our forefathers changed that. Our country was built on an idea, not a race, religion or ethnicity.
The Declaration of Independence is more aspiration than declaration. It took us ,as a country, time to implement this idea. And it’s a continuing process.
We fought a war over slavery, and our ideals triumphed over race, culture and heritage.
It was still a slow process, but we continued
We changed the country’s attitude towards war. We fought against the mass slaughter of unwilling soldiers in Vietnam. We still have war, but this country no longer has tolerance for the kind of casualties we saw in Vietnam. And all military service is now elective.
We also took part in eliminating the legalized racism that ran directly counter to the Declaration of Independence and hampered so many of our citizens in their pursuit of happiness.
We took further steps towards achieving these ideals by making marriage legally available to all couples.
We still aren’t there yet. But we’re getting there. And I’m proud to be part of it.
Because asking people how much they love their country is like asking men how much they love their wives. It’s, at best, a meaningless question because what counts is not how much you profess to love, but how you express that love.
And frankly, a lot of “patriots” are like the guys that love their wives so much that they would rather kill them then see them with another man. They embrace anti-governmental hierarchical ideals that run directly counter to the vision set forth in the Declaration of Independence. These “patriots” are exactly like the guys that project a fantasy image onto an exceptional but not perfect (because she’s real) woman and then kill her because she doesn’t live up to their fantasy.
Yes, I love my country. I love my country the way a parent loves their child. A good loving parent doesn’t insist that their child can do no wrong. A good loving parent doesn’t believe her child if he tells her that everyone in the school system and police department is out to get them. A good and loving parent doesn’t try to make her child’s misbehavior a societal norm
Like a good parent, I have a vision of what ai want my country to be in 10 years, 20 years, 50 years. That vision is laid out in our founding documents. And I want to help guide my country towards achieving that vision in whatever small way I can.
Because I love my country
(parts of this post have appeared in other posts,because I’m tired of writing the same thing over and over from scratch)
This is beautiful. Thanks!
America being a plutocratic, white nationalist version of idiocracy has existed long before Trump. Trump is just an extension of what came before him. Before 2015 you had Palin, the birther conspiracies, climate change denial, the southern strategy, etc.
Trump’s election made a lot of us question on a far deeper level how deranged and depraved America is, but people were questioning that before 2016.
I rarely get to say this, but I agree with you. 
You don’t want to get it. One state in the entire country denied Trump by more, the one that I live in (and Og am I proud of that!). NY did NOT choose Trump, by close to a 2:1 ratio. Funny how it’s those two states that are also penalized the most by the tax cuts. In other words, I’m subsidizing your tax break. I didn’t vote for Trump, NY state didn’t vote for Trump, and CA didn’t vote for Trump. And I’ll bet you love the shit out of that.
Bullshit. You just softpedaled the hell out of it:
Emphasis mine.
I love it when I get to throw somebody’s words back at them.
Oh please. You do it all the time…backhanded insult against libruls, followed by an explanation of ‘That’s not what I said.’ Except that everyone can read what you said.
shrug the rest of us subsidized your state’s high tax rate for long enough, I’m ok with you guys taking a turn now.
Cite away, Sherlock.
How the hell do you subsidize a high tax rate?
Yes, please, go read what I said. You will find that my statement (I have not said it “doesn’t matter”) is correct. Quite the opposite in fact. You’ll find that I did say:
and:
and:
By giving them federal tax breaks for every dollar they pay in state and local taxes.
And yet, California still manages to send more tax dollars to the Feds than comes into the state.
In other words, you didn’t say what I quoted from you?
No, in other words: I have not said it “doesn’t matter”.
I think this is a great post–with one caveat. The process is not continuous or unidirectional. The Wilmington Massacre of 1898 comprised a violent overthrow of an elected government and was crucial to ending the multiracial populist movement in the South and ushering in decades of Jim Crow. What we’re going through right now is a period of regress, not progress.
I wonder whether a lot of folks hear the question, “Do you love America?” as, “Are you satisfied with America, pleased with how it’s functioning?” If so, it’s almost definitional that conservatives would be more pleased with the way things are than progressives would be. If conservatives wanted big changes, they wouldn’t be very conservative.
ISTM that Trump supporters are incapable of nuance. To them, everything is binary.
I’d say that it’s easier for a conservative to say he loves America because it was once just as he would like it to be: no regulations, no safety net, and minorities and women knew their places. Liberals have a harder time saying that because it has never been the way they want it to be.
Right. You only said that a $1.5T addition to the deficit is a fair trade-off for your personal tax cut, and you absolutely minimized that addition as much as possible.
Still waiting for substantiation for this bogus claim:
I won’t ever get it, of course, but I can point out forcefully to everyone else how it’s only a rationalization to justify the extra bills being taken from my wallet and put into yours.
HD often does a good job of clearly explaining his opinions and views on topics. But every now and then, when the logic of those views reaches a nonsensical leap of logic, he is often quite up front that it’s okay if the logic isn’t sound if he is getting something that he wants.
This thread is a great example: “It’s not fair that low tax states don’t have higher taxes to gain more deductions… so high tax states should get fewer deductions so I can pay a lower rate!”
But he’s also suffering from the symptoms of bad math. If he pays, say, $7,000 in local taxes, his deduction of those taxes would probably amount to $1,500 less in Federal income taxes that he owes. If I in a high tax state pay $12,000 in taxes, I’m probably paying about $2,400 less in Federal taxes because of the deduction (even under the old SALT rules).
But… I’m still paying WAY more in taxes than he is, to the tune of several thousand dollars. Listening to his rationalizations, you’d think that I was getting away with murder, when in fact I’m still paying a lot more in taxes because of where I live.
“Oh,” but he will probably say, “If you didn’t have that deduction, my rates could be lowered so I would pay even less tax!” Except that there’s no connection between the two. Because he doesn’t mind if the debt goes up so long as he pays less taxes, so there’s no actual need to offset his tax cuts with anything… because deficits don’t matter (until Democrats are in power.)