# Fed Court: Presidential electors can vote as they wish **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 22, 2019, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046 "2019-08-22T10:58:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/61 "2019-08-23T11:11:22Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Sure, but it’s a feature, not a bug, of the EC. Sure, and counting slaves as 3/5ths of a person was a feature, not a bug at the time the Constitution was written. That doesn’t mean such “features” are eternal. > [@](#): > > So, yes, a relatively small number of people can shift elections. That makes no sense. Let’s say 1,500 people work on a large building, but one person puts on the finishing touch. That doesn’t negate the work of the other 1,499 people. Same with elections. > [@](#): > > The US is a republic, not a democracy. “One man, one vote” still exists, by the way, with the EC. That first phrase is meaningless and only intended to make some citizens better than others. The second is untrue, as you are arguing that some voters should have 1.25 votes, and others 0.89 votes, based on whether they like city life or prefer country living. That’s absurd and indefensible. > [@](#): > > Yup, it’s a sort of electoral affirmative action… So you DON’T believe in one person, one vote. > [@](#): > > The US electoral system is astonishingly strong and it has produced the most stable one. When the person with fewer votes gets into office twice within a single generation, that can’t be called strong or stable. That’s broken and fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/62 "2019-08-23T12:21:12Z")
“A few cities on both coasts” determining the outcome of an election is quite an overstatement. The flipside is to say that a few farmers in a giant field should have an advantage. Cities. Yeah, lots of people live there. Stunning news. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/63 "2019-08-23T14:12:41Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Maybe I’m completely missing the boat, but I see this ruling (if it stands) as turning the electors into a bunch of wild cards, subject to no one’s control. If they have consciences, that could be a good thing. What the ruling does is clarify/establish the fact that while the States have authority over the process by which the electors are elected/chosen, their actual participation in the Electoral College is a Federal exercise, and outside the authority of the States. So basically they’re saying that the States can’t try to mandate how an elector will vote- they have no authority to interfere in the Federal Electoral College process like that. The original intent of the Electoral College was that it would be some kind of august body of upstanding citizens, etc… elected to choose a president. Kind of like a one-time, one-purpose Congress with one thing to vote on, if you want to think about it that way. But over time, this morphed into something different- rather than electing individual electors, most states have their citizens elect a “slate” of electors chosen by each party, and in some states, there are penalties on the books for electors who don’t vote according to what the “slate” is supposed to vote for. This ruling is saying that no, the electors’ votes are not subject to penalties like that, as they’re part of a Federal process, and the States’ authority ends at the point when they’re elected. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/64 "2019-08-23T14:51:28Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I didn’t think anybody actually said this in real life. Mostly because it’s absolutely not true. > > The U.S. doesn’t meet the definition of classical democracies. So what? Words change their meaning and accrue new ones all the time. The U.S. begat a new definition of democracy. It is now the dictionary definition of what a democracy is. When you need to point at something called a democracy the U.S. is what you point at. > > Can one also call it a republic? Sure. Totally accurately, too, given the modern definition of a republic. > > Both, not one or the other. It means that it’s a collection of states which have all the rights except those specifically given to the federal government. That’s the difference as it is used. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Sure, and counting slaves as 3/5ths of a person was a feature, not a bug at the time the Constitution was written. That doesn’t mean such “features” are eternal. The 3/5 was to take power away from slaveowners and to actually make ONE country out of the colonies. It was a compromise. Definitely, change the EC if it is not right, but the way it Works. IT was made specifically to give a greater proportional vote to smaller states. > [@](#): > > That makes no sense. Let’s say 1,500 people work on a large building, but one person puts on the finishing touch. That doesn’t negate the work of the other 1,499 people. Same with elections. One of them was the Lead Architect. Her contribution is much more important than Jane’s just pouring cement. > [@](#): > > That first phrase is meaningless and only intended to make some citizens better than others. The second is untrue, as you are arguing that some voters should have 1.25 votes, and others 0.89 votes, based on whether they like city life or prefer country living. That’s absurd and indefensible. As I said, the made it with that express intention. That’s how they made smaller, less populous states, want to be part of the compact. > [@](#): > > So you DON’T believe in one person, one vote. I, personally, sure I do. The EC as it was set for the puropse it was set, not quite. > [@](#): > > When the person with fewer votes gets into office twice within a single generation, that can’t be called strong or stable. That’s broken and fucked up. In the US electoral system, the total number of votes is irrelevant. There is no such thing, legally, as “popular vote.” And, yes, a system with no coups, no interruptions of civil governemt, with the same constitution for 240 years, it is stable. > [@bobot](#): > > “A few cities on both coasts” determining the outcome of an election is quite an overstatement. The flipside is to say that a few farmers in a giant field should have an advantage. > Cities. Yeah, lots of people live there. Stunning news. It’s abit too much to say like that, but sure. The whole puropse of the EC is an uneven distribution of votes and population so as to not turn states into meaningless part of the election. Should the US go to simple popular vote? Maybe, I don’t know. What’s clear is that, states should not by simple law overturn the clear intent of the constitution; even when said constitution is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/65 "2019-08-23T15:44:48Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The vote of a faithless elector is nothing short of an attempt at a coup d’etat, and the legitimate responses to that kind of thing can be **much** worse than some party activist being kicked out of a ceremonial office; I wish the judges hadn’t decided we would have to g eveno farther down that road to solve this problem in the future. There have been 167 instances of faithless electors going back to the 1796 Election. Were they all attempts at a coup? > **[Faithless elector](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector)** > > In the United States Electoral College, a faithless elector is an elector who does not vote for the candidates for U.S. President and U.S. Vice President for whom the elector had pledged to vote, and instead votes for another person for one or both offices or abstains from voting. As part of United States presidential elections, each state selects the method by which its electors are to be selected, which in modern times has been based on a popular vote in most states, and generally requires it... ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/66 "2019-08-23T16:15:19Z")
Thank you for your service, D’Anconia. Without you holding the line, the internet would be overrun by hyperbole. Pedantry is so refreshing. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/67 "2019-08-23T17:23:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Sure, and counting slaves as 3/5ths of a person was a feature, not a bug at the time the Constitution was written. That doesn’t mean such “features” are eternal. Just a reminder that the slave states would have been very happy to count their property as whole persons for purposes of representation in the House. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/68 "2019-08-23T17:41:28Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Since the US is a republic and not a democracy, it shouldn’t be a problem. > > Cite? Its a Republican Form of Democracy. Saying the USA is a republic and not a democracy is like saying a German shepherd is a dog, not a canid. Certainly in recent time, the 2016 election is noted. However, in the past the Dems fixed elections also. It’s just now the Dems have such a lead in numbers, the GOP _needs_ to fix elections, i.e. it’s current run of Jim Crow laws. oh sorry, “Voter ID”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/69 "2019-08-23T19:02:36Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > One of them was the Lead Architect. Her contribution is much more important than Jane’s just pouring cement. What was the political party created by the “Lead Architect” of the Constitution, again? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/70 "2019-08-23T19:23:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > When the person with fewer votes gets into office twice within a single generation, that can’t be called strong or stable. That’s broken and fucked up. It happened twice in a single generation 150 years ago. Kinda looks stable. The solution to this problem is selecting electors more carefully, not a fairly obviously unconstitutional law. Or change the constitution, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/71 "2019-08-23T20:21:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Thank you for your service, D’Anconia. Without you holding the line, the internet would be overrun by hyperbole. I doubt the poster in question _intended_ to engage in hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/72 "2019-08-23T21:08:32Z")
The Electoral College makes it _more_ likely for an election to be swayed by a small number of people, not less. For instance, in 2000, the election was swayed by a few hundred people in Florida. That would not have been possible, without the Electoral College. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/73 "2019-08-23T21:56:33Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > And, yes, a system with no coups, no interruptions of civil governemt, with the same constitution for 240 years, it is stable. What do you call the American Civil War? I’d also add that if a Constitution is squarely at odds with the values of the people it supposedly applies to, then you’ve got a crisis of political faith. And it’s not long before you have just a plain ol’ political crisis. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/74 "2019-08-23T23:46:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Electoral College makes it _more_ likely for an election to be swayed by a small number of people, not less. For instance, in 2000, the election was swayed by a few hundred people in Florida. That would not have been possible, without the Electoral College. This. The closest election of modern times, the 1960 election, had a popular vote margin of 112,827 votes. It takes a lot more work to change nearly 113,000 votes than to change, say, the few thousand that were apparently redirected by Palm Beach County’s ‘butterfly ballot.’ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/75 "2019-08-24T13:50:23Z")
The American Civil War was an attempt at a coup (or something like it), but it was unsuccessful. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/76 "2019-08-24T16:09:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The American Civil War was an attempt at a coup (or something like it), but it was unsuccessful. Yeah, an unsuccessful coup is a historical nothingness. Civil government was not interrupted in the majority of states. The world went on more or less as normal, especially far from the border - which was where the majority of the population lived. An item on my bucket list is to write a big tome on The Years Left Out of the History Books. It would be a history of 1861-1865 ignoring the war as much as possible. You’d find out that civil government at all levels did as much and as many interesting, historically important things then as in any other four year period of the country. More, in fact, than from 1857-1860. One fact that I find amazing is that more than a million people emigrated to the North during the Civil War, the majority of them young men. That’s undoubtedly the only time in history when a country in a major war saw a net increase in population. (Refugees might have made this happen at some point, but willing in-migration never.) The North in 1865 had a larger pool of bodies for the army than in 1861 despite all the casualties. I don’t think that has ever happened either. Yet another reason why the South had zero chance of winning the war without an abject surrender by the North. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/77 "2019-08-26T01:21:29Z")
In real life, it doesn’t mean anything. Think about it. Who ARE the electors? A slate of people put forward by each party. So all the parties have to do is to make sure they choose people who are even MORE “faithful” than ever. Instead of a retired county clerk whose years of service gets rewarded with an all-expenses paid trip to the state capitol, your new electors will be young rural school bus drivers, whose spouses work for the county highway department, and who are terrified that voting against the party line will get both the elector and spouse fired. This gives a whole new meaning to “elections have consequences.” After all,[Politics ain’t beanbag.](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/01/what-newt-and-mitt-mean-when-they-say-aint-bean-bag/332490/) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/78 "2019-08-26T02:02:58Z")
There’s no way a school bus driver would get fired, or if they did, they’d be instantly hired by the next district over. There’s way too much demand for school bus drivers. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/79 "2019-08-26T02:27:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s no way a school bus driver would get fired, or if they did, they’d be instantly hired by the next district over. There’s way too much demand for school bus drivers. In rural Missouri where the factories and the mines closed a generation ago, if you’re an otherwise unskilled worker, working for a public school is a damn highly sought after job. Same with working for the county highway department. Even if it’s only part-time, it pays better than the 10 hours a week you’ll be lucky to get at the local Wal-Mart that ran all the other retailers out. Just ask my aunt. She drove a school bus for a rural district for 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046/80 "2019-08-26T04:08:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Now that they have a green light to do as they please, do you think Democrats can win any close election? If Democrats win \<300 EVs, you can bet that millions will be given to enough faithless electors to change the outcome. So let me get this straight. A slate of very-loyal Democrat electors is offered a bribe to vote Pub and they go for it and not one reports it to the FBI? Seriously? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-court-presidential-electors-can-vote-as-they-wish/839046.md?page=5)