# Fed up with Teacher Hate and Disrespect in this Country **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653 "2011-08-30T18:03:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/241 "2011-09-01T00:11:38Z")
@Rand Rover…I think that teaching involves an emotional investment not required in a law office. If you don’t like the kids you can never do a good job, but for those who do it matters very much that they be given the support needed to achieve the success they hope for for each child. CHILD You deal with adults. Teachers help shape young minds, sometimes their whole lives. I’ve never once confused my mother with the plumber. One helped raise me and the other has been called on to fix a problem I couldn’t handle myself. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/242 "2011-09-01T00:33:23Z")
LHOD, do you have a cite that the best predictor of student success is teacher quality? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/243 "2011-09-01T00:37:53Z")
Becky–meh. You seem to have a poor view of lawyers. I think there’s an emotional investment in every aspect of a person’s life that they have something significant riding on. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/244 "2011-09-01T00:42:14Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > LHOD, do you have a cite that the best predictor of student success is teacher quality? I’m guessing you had some stupid fucking teachers. Seeing as snowmobile salesman is like only two ticks above McDonalds. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/245 "2011-09-01T00:52:59Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m guessing you had some stupid fucking teachers. Seeing as snowmobile salesman is like only two ticks above McDonalds. Oh, yes, please, let’s start that. **Rand Rover** , it’s sweet that you think I put together a good argument. The feeling isn’t mutual, though, and you’re not interesting enough to take seriously. Unless someone else needs me to Google for them, I’ll pass on the request for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/246 "2011-09-01T00:55:47Z")
> [@Rand Rover](#): > > LHOD, do you have a cite that the best predictor of student success is teacher quality? You didn’t ask me, but since I anticipate this question coming up a lot let me just answer this for him to get it out of the way. > **[Eric Hanushek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hanushek)** > > Eric Alan Hanushek (/ˈhænəʃɛk/; born May 22, 1943) is an American economist who has written prolifically on public policy with a special emphasis on the economics of education. Since 2000, he has been a Paul and Jean Hanna Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, an American public policy think tank located at Stanford University in California. He was awarded the Yidan Prize for Education Research in 2021. > Hanushek advocates using economic analysis to improve student performance. He has authored... > [@](#): > > Eric Alan Hanushek is a Paul and Jean Hanna Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University. He is also an expert on educational policy. His main area of interest is the economics of education, focusing on controversial areas of education policy including the class size reduction, high stakes accountability, and the importance of teacher quality. Hanushek received his PhD in economics from MIT and is a Distinguished Graduate of the United States Air Force Academy. > … > > He is a member of the National Academy of Education and a fellow of the International Academy of Education, of the Society of Labor Economists, and of the American Educational Research Association. He was awarded the Fordham Prize for Distinguished Scholarship in 2004. He served in the federal government as Deputy Director of the Congressional Budget Office. Hanushek was among a group of american economists who supported John McCain during the last presidential elections. [http://edpro.stanford.edu/hanushek/admin/pages/files/uploads/Teacher%20quality.Evers-Izumi.pdf](http://edpro.stanford.edu/hanushek/admin/pages/files/uploads/Teacher%20quality.Evers-Izumi.pdf) > [@](#): > > Starting with the Coleman Report, the monumental investigation in 1966 by the Office of Education, many have argued that schools do not matter and that only families and peers affect performance. Part of this view is true, and part is quite wrong. This report was the most extensive investigation of schools ever undertaken. Unfortunately, that report and subsequent interpretations of it have generally confused “measurability” with true effects. Specifically, > characteristics of schools and classrooms, like the teacher having a master’s degree or the class size being small, did not show any effect on student performance—leading to the conclusion that schools do not matter. This conclusion, probably more than anything else, led to a prevailing viewthat differences among schools are not very important. The extensive research over the past 35 years has led to two clear conclusions. First, there are very important differences among teachers. This finding, of course, does not surprise many parents, who are well aware of quality differences of teachers. Second, these differences are not captured by common measures of teachers (qualifications, experience, and the like). This latter finding has important implications that I sketch below. > > The magnitude of differences in teachers is impressive. Let me provide two different indications of teacher quality. For these measures I use a simple definition of teacher quality: good teachers are ones who get large gains in student achievement for their classes; bad teachers are just the opposite. Looking at the range of quality for teachers within a single large urban district, teachers near the top of the quality distribution can get an entire year’s worth of additional learning out of their students compared to those near the bottom. That is, a good teacher will get a gain of one and a half grade-level equivalents, whereas a bad teacher will get a gain of only half a year for a single academic year. Alternatively, if we look at just the variations in performance resulting from differences in teacher quality within a typical school, then moving from an average teacher to one at the 85th percentile of teacher quality would imply that the better teacher’s students would move up more than 7 percentile rankings in the year. > > We can also return to the popular argument that family background is overwhelmingly important and that schools cannot be expected to make up for bad preparation from home. The latter estimates of teacher performance suggest that having three years of good teachers (85th percentile) in a row would overcome the average achievement deficit between low-income kids (those on free or reduced-price lunch) and others. In other words, highquality teachers can make up for the typical deficits that we see in the preparation of kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/247 "2011-09-01T01:41:35Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > What the fuck is this ‘sweet, sweet bitch tears’ you keep babbling about? Does saying it over and over give you a chubby or something? Let’s say we get a new real-live member (not a troll) who is a KKK member, a pedophile and rabidly anti-US. And he’s always bitching about how the niggers are ruining his life, 5-year-olds should be able to choose to have sex with grown men, and the US should send all its nukes straight up and straight down. Isn’t there some part of you that likes to hear him bitch about those things? Well, that’s why I like hearing LHOD (et al) bitch about certain topics they like to bitch about. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/248 "2011-09-01T01:45:16Z")
LHOD and Jack Batty, I hope you learned your lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/249 "2011-09-01T01:46:18Z")
Yeah. Steer clear of drinking scotch every night. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/250 "2011-09-01T01:47:01Z")
> [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](#): > > You didn’t ask me, but since I anticipate this question coming up a lot let me just answer this for him to get it out of the way. > > [Eric Hanushek - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hanushek) > [http://edpro.stanford.edu/hanushek/admin/pages/files/uploads/Teacher%20quality.Evers-Izumi.pdf](http://edpro.stanford.edu/hanushek/admin/pages/files/uploads/Teacher%20quality.Evers-Izumi.pdf) That article only defines a quality teacher in a post facto fashion. I.e., "For these measures I use a simple definition of teacher quality: good teachers are ones who get large gains in student achievement for their classes; bad teachers are just the opposite. " That’s all well and good, but how do we determine that a person we are considering hiring as a teacher will be able to create large gains in student achievement? I didn’t see an answer for that in the article. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/251 "2011-09-01T01:47:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And what does he mean by calling me a bitch? I think RR is just being…contemporary. I mean, it’s not like girls don’t get called dude and guys don’t get called bitches all the time these days. It’s been going on for at least fifteen years now. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/252 "2011-09-01T01:58:04Z")
> [@Rand Rover](#): > > That article only defines a quality teacher in a post facto fashion. Who gives a shit? He in fact says that he only cares about the results, not the process. That’s not surprising, because he found no correlation in the ‘traditional’ measures (at least what’s measurable) of what makes a teacher good. So his definition is ‘a good teacher is one that makes a good student’. Which while post hoc and not pertinent to the question of ‘what makes a quality teacher’, is not what you asked. Nor do I particularly care to ask that question. Someone may identify all of the factors but we just might have to accept the fact that identifying what makes a good teacher good is as impossible to concretely nail down as to what makes an actor profitable. You don’t, really, you just set some minimum requirements and if they pull in money/student results, great, keep them. Otherwise you can kick their ass to the curb. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/253 "2011-09-01T02:02:30Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t believe you make that much money. If so, it’s due neither to your intelligence nor your personality. You don’t have much experience with attorneys do you? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/254 "2011-09-01T02:10:41Z")
> [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](#): > > Who gives a shit? Let’s say you get 100 people together and give each of them a fair quarter. You tell them to flip it fairly. And you tell them that you want heads, none of them motherfucking tails goddammit. Three of the coin flippers get 15 heads in a row. Well, glory be, you’ve just found yourself the best coin flippers in the universe. I guess those are the guys you keep on to get you all the heads you’d ever want, right? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/255 "2011-09-01T02:17:25Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Sometimes kids are just stupid. Its their fault they’re not learning, no fault on the teachers themselves. > [@ralph124c](#): > > ``` > Having been a teacher, I can sympathize. The issue is this: in every class, there are usually 3-5 troublemakers. These are kids who talk back, act up, and use vulgar langage. These kids can hijck the calss-they refuse to obey, and disrupt the class. the principals won't do anything, and the schools are afraid of lawsits. So these little shits wind up absorbing most of your energy-you come in with a lesson plan, and wind up spending half the time trying to get these problems to stop. > > ``` This (well, these). Why is there so much focus here on something that doesn’t really appear to be an issue - teacher quality - and not on the things that are _actually_ a drag on kids getting an education? Are you all just as lazy as the parents and have decided the teachers must be the problem, and not the fact the parents can’t be bothered to, you know - parent? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/256 "2011-09-01T02:28:53Z")
There are two ways of looking at teacher quality. The shitty way is to take the research about teacher quality and mistakenly conclude that a good teacher can overwhelm the effects of a shitty homelife. I don’t believe that’s true, nor is that what the research says. The other way to see it is that as a teacher, given my very limited influence on the homelife, the factor I have the most control over is the quality of my teaching. Sure, if I could force every parent to read to their kid nightly, establish regular routines and consistent discipline, converse pleasantly and intellectually with their children throughout the day, feed the kids a balanced, healthful diet, and so on, I’d be living the life of Riley. But I can’t. What I can do is to take those kids who come to me after being up all night because their neighbor was blasting music, who came in late because mom overslept yet again, who had a Diet Dr. Pepper as their entire breakfast, who believe that they don’t need school because when they grow up they can sell guns just like dad, etc. (this character is obviously a montage, but all of kids from my experience)–I can take that kid and do my damnedest to make reading relevant to him, do my damnedest to get him to accept intellectual challenges. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/257 "2011-09-01T02:29:47Z")
Your argument only makes sense if you think that teaching success is random and completely out of the hands of the teacher after a certain point of competency. And I mean _completely_ random. Not ‘we don’t know the process so it may as well be random’. An analogy can be drawn with poker. There’s a large element of randomness to the game and sometimes the best player will lose to a total amateur, but nonetheless there will still be some better players than others. If you want to flush out lucky amateurs from your poker team you need to be less forgiving of failure–which means that sometimes you’ll wash out competent guys who just had a temporary bad streak. This isn’t a problem if you have enough people clamoring to be on your poker team that you can be totally unforgiving, but if candidates are turning down invitations because they think that you’re too quick to give players the boot you’ll need to provide compensation. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/258 "2011-09-01T02:31:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay, a much more substantial post, however cherry-picked the statistics. Where are you getting the per capita GDP? Because the estimates I’m seeing are [significantly less](http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/37000.html) for North Carolina. Cherry picking? No, it was pure laziness; the only country that had an average for their teacher was Japan. The fact that the numbers were so similar was pure coincidence (and possibly error). If my figure on per capita GDP on North Carolina was high, it only makes me wonder what you think your expectations for being paid like a ‘professional’ are. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/259 "2011-09-01T02:38:26Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Ok, so I’m pretty new to the SD forums, so I hope I am putting this in the right place. If not, my apologies. > > I would really like to know how people get off hating and disrespecting teachers so much. If you are someone who feels like teachers complain too much, are overpaid, have it easy, etc, please respond to my following story and questions. I’m going to try to be as civil as possible, but this is a topic that I feel very strongly about and causes a great deal of RAGE for me. > > First, a bit of background. I am a 25 year old who spent his first 2 years after earning his Bachelors in Physics and Masters of Science in Science Education teaching high school physics. I quit this summer to persue a different career outside of teaching, even though that was my passion… You lost me at “persue”. Perhaps you made the right decision 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/260 "2011-09-01T02:40:46Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > it only makes me wonder what you think your expectations for being paid like a ‘professional’ are. What was confusing about my previous explanation, the one that appeared in the post you quoted? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653.md?page=14)