# Fed up with Teacher Hate and Disrespect in this Country **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653 "2011-08-30T18:03:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/321 "2011-09-02T23:08:07Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > _Excuse_ me? I went through a teaching licensing program. My degree and experience wasn’t in education. Some of us paid our dues and had an idea of how it goes when the state finally gave us licensure. I paid my dues, too. I went back to school to get a license. I know how it goes. Lemme tell you how it goes: -A girl in the education program declared on the first day of a class on children’s literature: “I hate reading. Except the Bible.” -A kid in the program declared in a class on teaching literacy skills, when asked to say something about the Revolutionary War: “I don’t know anything about the Revolutionary War. Who was president then?” When I told her there was no president, that was sort of the point, she said, “Oh. Who was the first president? Was it Washington?” -A GROUP of kids in a program, as part of their FINAL PROJECT in a math class, presented a math/social studies unit about four countries: Italy, Jordan, Columbia [sic], and Africa. Among their questions were gems such as: “You can swim in the Caribbean Sea off this country” [answer: Africa] and “Egypt and Cairo are two cities in this country with a population of nine million people.” Again, this was their final project, the basis for something like 15% of their class grade, and it was something that about four kids turned in together. Remember what I said about how we shouldn’t recruit from the bottom third? Remember how folks pooh-poohed that idea? There’s a reason why I think it’s a good idea to set our sights higher. Not all teachers are like this, of course, don’t get me wrong. Some teachers feel a calling, and I had classmates who were totally awesome and who I’d love to have teaching my own child someday. But for others, this shitty income is really the best they can hope for. I’d like to raise income and standards such that we don’t need to hire those folks to teach our kids. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/322 "2011-09-02T23:16:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Remember what I said about how we shouldn’t recruit from the bottom third? Remember how folks pooh-poohed that idea? There’s a reason why I think it’s a good idea to set our sights higher. People aren’t pooh-poohing the idea of attracting the best talent. They are rightly noting that you simply won’t get an appreciable number of applicants if our society thinks they aren’t worth paying or treating well. You can target all you want. You just aren’t going to get them without better incentives. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/323 "2011-09-03T00:17:32Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > People aren’t pooh-poohing the idea of attracting the best talent. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Yeah, but that proposal hovers somewhere between “self-evident” and “ridiculous”. Holy shit, “only recruit the people with highest grades”? Stop the fuckin’ presses, we’re gonna DO this thing. Are you reading the same thread as me? All along I’ve been coupling stricter recruiting with increased incentives. Some folks have suggested we don’t need to recruit from the highest brackets; others have said such a proposal hovers between…well, read it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/324 "2011-09-03T00:50:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Are you reading the same thread as me? All along I’ve been coupling stricter recruiting with increased incentives. Some folks have suggested we don’t need to recruit from the highest brackets; others have said such a proposal hovers between…well, read it yourself. Yes. “Self-evident”. Now where are the Cadillacs and blow? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/325 "2011-09-03T11:53:15Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Yes. “Self-evident”. Now where are the Cadillacs and blow? My question exactly. My position has always been: 1. Make it harder to become a teacher. 2. Give me Cadillacs and blow. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/326 "2011-09-03T13:35:47Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > _Excuse_ me? I went through a teaching licensing program. My degree and experience wasn’t in education. Some of us paid our dues and had an idea of how it goes when the state finally gave us licensure. And you’re insinuating that TFA teachers do not? I have a lifetime cert in PK-6 that I earned as well doing the same courses and fieldwork that every alt cert teacher in HISD did. Unless you’re tarring all alt cert teachers with the same brush I’d back off that statement. > [@](#): > > If you aren’t retaining teachers, you’re not hitting the bottom line. You’re just going to have the same damned shortages in math and special ed in a couple of years. It is in no way cost effective or good for the system to have teachers cycling in and out of buildings. It hurts education, actually. So what are traditional certification programs doing to solve this? You’re blasting TFA because they are making an effort to address a need. Do you have the same contempt for the traditional structures that have failed? There’s no Lawyers for America, or CPA for America because those fields don’t suffer from chronic shortages (although I’m sure there are programs to address inequities, etc.). I never heralded TFA as the solution but it is an effort to address some of the issues inherent with how we have traditionally recruited teachers. > [@](#): > > Kipp isn’t impressive: cherry pick your students and make your employees work 12-16 hour days so that they too will quit after a few years. I find it strange that an educator would simply dismiss the success that KIPP has had. It’s fine to critique, and like every educational innovation the model isn’t perfect. But aren’t there problems with every new approach to educational reform? I also think it’s unfair to call out KIPP for cherry picking (I know this is a favorite meme, but can you provide evidence of this?) when this is the charge thrown against every charter school out there. > [@](#): > > People who go through legit teacher ed programs are not padding their resume. Some of us are giving more than a two-year commitment. I don’t know if I’d want to go out there and claim to know the motivations of every “legit” teacher ed candidate. I teach at a university with a program and personally know that some of the students are in it until they get married to a guy who can provide for them and then they’ll stay at home with the kids. There are folks who stay in the classroom for many years and suck. There are folks who stay for two years and rock - and every permutation in-between. You’re dismissing the knowledge of legislators and policy makers who actually spent time in classrooms. Let me tell you, I have testified to state legislators here in Texas and would have loved to have had someone who knew something about classroom teaching and teacher experiences beyond news clippings on the other side of the table. Teacher retention is a problem for the profession as a whole, so much so, I think we need to question if the 1950s model of teaching for a lifetime is really feasible. Most people have seven careers in a lifetime - why are those in the teaching profession any different? So I expect you to level the same criticism to any teacher who doesn’t stay in the classroom, whether they be “legit,” alt cert, TFA, or whatever. (And can I just say I really find the use of “legit” particularly condescending? I am a both a TFA teacher and an alt cert teacher. In many districts the alt cert teachers outnumber the traditional certification teachers, at least in the novice ranks. I can point any number of outstanding teachers who were alt cert, including the outstanding new teacher of the year in HISD in '96 and someone like Jason Kamras, the national teacher of the year in 2005 [both TFA teachers].) > [@](#): > > It wastes district money. Who do you think contracts with and pays TFA? And are you of the opinion that private money wasted is not money wasted? Yikes. Please provide evidence of how a emergency cert teacher working toward certification, or one who in fact is certified and doing their job, is a “waste.” I can only speak from my example, but if I had not been teaching in my school, my classroom would have been manned by a rotating cast of substitutes (when one non-TFA teacher quit midyear, that’s exactly what happened). I daresay that I brought better value and educational prowess to the classroom than (perhaps) well-meaning but completely overwhelmed aides who thought if they could get the kids to shut up they were actually doing something. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/327 "2011-09-03T13:41:10Z")
LHOD, several people in this thread have argued that it’s impossible to determine upfront whether a person would make a good teacher or not. If they are right, then recruiting from the top third by paying more wouldn’t necessarily guarantee better teachers. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/328 "2011-09-03T14:10:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed you don’t, thus the stats you’re offering are irrelevant. I’ve seen stats before showing that teachers in NC are paid something like 8-14% less than professions that require similar educational background. If these stats are wrong, then of course my point is much weakened. No, I don’t have them handy. Irrelevant? They’re infinitely more relevant than the data you’ve offered. This is your grand plan and all you’ve got is “I’ve seen stats before”? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/329 "2011-09-03T16:46:44Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Irrelevant? They’re infinitely more relevant than the data you’ve offered. This is your grand plan and all you’ve got is “I’ve seen stats before”? You’re being ridiculous. My original point had no stats in it at all, this being the Pit; I based my post off something I remember reading years ago. You offered some shitty and irrelevant stats, and are now claiming that shitty and irrelevant stats trump no stats at all. No, actually, they don’t. If you don’t care to trust my memory, that’s awesome–but your shitty and irrelevant stats no more refute my post than any other shitty and irrelevant stats would. If you genuinely believe that teachers in NC are paid commensurately with holders of other 4-year degrees working in the area of their expertise, even after reading that document I just linked to, enjoy yourself. If you’re withholding judgment until you see hard numbers, I totally understand, and regret that I can’t find any one way or the other. But don’t offer some bullshit and claim that bullshit trumps nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/330 "2011-09-03T16:49:43Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > There are folks who stay in the classroom for many years and suck. There are folks who stay for two years and rock - and every permutation in-between. You’re dismissing the knowledge of legislators and policy makers who actually spent time in classrooms. The document I linked to above alludes to research showing that people who leave the profession before 5 years are more effective than people who remain at least five years, on average. I totally believe it. Set aside the people with a calling, and you’re left with smart people who can find easier, higher-paying jobs, and dumb people who can’t. The dumb people stay in the field, while the smart people leave. (Please note the first clause in that last sentence. It’s key.) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/331 "2011-09-03T17:13:28Z")
Since it’s come up a few times in this thread, I dug up some old data on how much teachers work and when they work. Thus far I have not found any criticism of the accuracy of these reports. The post is from a discussion on whether the dispersal of work hours throughout the year matters. For example, working the same number of total yearly hours squished into nine months leaves you with more earning potential than if those hours are more even distributed throughout the whole year. > [@Know what? Teachers are da bomb.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-teachers-are-da-bomb/573466/32): > > Why _wouldn’t_ you count it that way? If I get a job where I only have to work 75% of the year, my earning potential is salary + whatever I can make during the summer. If you can make the same pay/day, that’s a desirable 33% (not 25%) bonus.\* The teachers in my family all take advantage of this, although the [Bureau of Labor Statistics (PDF)](http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf) tells me only ~50% of teachers work in July. Given that the average schoolday is only 6.7 hours ([Nation Center for Education Statistics](http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pss/tables/table_2004_06.asp)), one might think they’d also take on extra work in the afternoons, but they don’t feel the need. I can’t find information on how many of those 6.7 hours are taken up by non-teaching prep periods and lunch. [My search](http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=gsih&xhr=t&q=teacher+prep+periods&cp=20&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=teacher+prep+periods&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=6748bdc54aa2b944) yields one school district which guarantees an average of 3.25 hours/week of prep time each week. A reply to my email to family gives us a single anecdote of one prep period per day (actually more, but the extra time is usually devoted to meetings and such.) I visited her once and lunch was damn short. > > The schoolday is short, and some may be critical of the average of only 5.6 hours worked per day, but keep in mind that this includes time spent working on weekends, so that adds up to an average workweek of 39.2 hours. > \*An extreme example of this is a married pair of professors I know who clear an extra $98,000 each summer. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/332 "2011-09-05T14:27:05Z")
Thing is, lots of people fall into teaching because they don’t know what else to do, once they get their degree. And some people, who believe they are gifts to teaching, are not. If your principal was unhappy with your performance, and your students and parents were also both unhappy with your performance, perhaps teaching isn’t for you. Just because you liked it, and a couple of people said you were awesome, doesn’t make it so. The successful teachers I know, recognize, like any organization they will not always meet with support on all sides. But they also don’t report that students, principals and parents are all against them. Occasionally they face conflicts with one of the three, but never with all three on an on going basis. Maybe it’s just you? Can’t admit you weren’t the bee’s knees, or accept you didn’t thrive at it, perhaps? Teacher’s get a fair bit of flack, in part, because they seem, sometimes to still expect the community to be as beholding to them as when there were one room schools and teachers were paid in beets. Those days have passed. Ask a server what they think of teachers. Gas station attendants and grocery baggers tip better than teachers. They seem to think everyone in the community should still be beholding to them, like it’s still the 1920’s. It’s not a bad deal having summers off, a week at Christmas, spring break. Yeah, it comes with homework and other headaches, but I haven’t come across another job that’s headache free. Most teachers I know acknowledge that. Trying to equivocate and deny as much, makes teacher’s look like idiots. Just like their justification for not tipping a waitress in a diner. Some teacher’s carry around this sense of entitlement, like, “Adore me, I am creating the next generation, I am responsible for our future, I am shaping young minds!” Yeah, yeah, yeah, so are parents, doctors are saving lives, scientists are curing diseases and nurses are giving care to the ill. None of these people are going to be compensated in accordance with the importance of their tasks. Most of these professions understand that there is no amount of money I can assign to compensate for you saving my mother’s life, or curing my child’s disease. They are in those professions because it’s a reward in itself. Sometimes teachers come off as too entitled. If you love teaching teach, if you don’t do something else. But don’t blame your leaving the job on something other than your own self described inability to please your students, their parents or your principal. It just seems disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/333 "2011-09-05T14:37:40Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Yeah, it comes with homework and other headaches, but I haven’t come across another job that’s headache free. Most teachers I know acknowledge that. Of course teaching isn’t the hardest job. Put me up against a trauma surgeon, or a soldier on active duty, or a police officer in a tough neighborhood, or a firefighter? No question but that my job is relatively easy. But compared to most white-collar jobs? I’ve known plenty of white-collar job holders who think teaching is easy. I’ve known plenty of teachers who have never held a white-collar job who think teaching is much more difficult. And I’ve known several folks who either left teaching for a white-collar job, or vice versa, who say teaching is much more difficult than their white-collar job. I’ve seriously never known a person who’s both taught and held a white-collar job who thinks that teaching is the easier of the two. Ever. Maybe it’s small sample size or whatever, but it’s just not happened. > [@](#): > > Some teacher’s carry around this sense of entitlement, like, “Adore me, I am creating the next generation, I am responsible for our future, I am shaping young minds!” Yeah, yeah, yeah, so are parents, doctors are saving lives, scientists are curing diseases and nurses are giving care to the ill. None of these people are going to be compensated in accordance with the importance of their tasks. Indeed; they can’t be. I’m not wanting to be compensated according to the importance of my job. I just want to be compensated like a doctor ;). ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/334 "2011-09-05T15:13:32Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > This morning I had to press assault charges against a six year old boy for kicking my daughter so hard she has a bruised pubic bone. I had to take my sweet little baby girl to the ER and have her examined by someone she’s never met before and let strangers take pictures of the bruise. Then I had to withdraw her from her school, away from her friends of two years, because I know without a doubt that the teachers are not paying enough attention to their students. This is the third time this year she’s been hurt by another student and all three times she’s told a teacher but the teacher didn’t do a thing about it. I wish I could have filed the charge against her instead. When my older son was in middle school he wore a cup every day for protection. One time he was attacked by two older boys in the hall (one threw him up against the locker.) Per school policy they were all suspended for fighting… When my younger son came home one day and told me about a boy reduced to tears because he had to “go Number 2” and the only stall didn’t have a door on it, I called the school and raised so much hell that they put the door back on. Was told it had been removed because they couldn’t monitor what was going on in there. :dubious: And he, too, was kicked in the pubes so hard we had to take him to the doctor. Guess I dropped the ball by not handing him his cup every day along with his lunch. All this was at a supposedly “good school.” ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/335 "2011-09-05T17:15:05Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > And you’re insinuating that TFA teachers do not? I have a lifetime cert in PK-6 that I earned as well doing the same courses and fieldwork that every alt cert teacher in HISD did. Unless you’re tarring all alt cert teachers with the same brush I’d back off that statement. I am not going to back off. I was responding to the idea that TFA teachers leave because they have other options and we don’t. > [@](#): > > So what are traditional certification programs doing to solve this? You’re blasting TFA because they are **making an effort to address a need.** Do you have the same contempt for the traditional structures that have failed? There’s no Lawyers for America, or CPA for America because those fields don’t suffer from chronic shortages (although I’m sure there are programs to address inequities, etc.). **I never heralded TFA as the solution** but it is an effort to address some of the issues inherent with how we have traditionally recruited teachers. If your teachers don’t stay in the class and they upset other teachers for contracts, I daresay you’re not helping as much as you claim. > [@](#): > > I find it strange that an educator would simply dismiss the success that KIPP has had. It’s fine to critique, and like every educational innovation the model isn’t perfect. But aren’t there problems with every new approach to educational reform? I also think it’s unfair to call out KIPP for cherry picking (I know this is a favorite meme, but can you provide evidence of this?) when this is the charge thrown against every charter school out there. Actually, yes. I subbed at a KIPP school and I have friends that work in a few around the country. “Cherry-pick” - kick out students a lot easier, don’t take in those without papers, don’t take ESL students. Plus they have more money and smaller class sizes (most of the time) and make teachers work longer until they, too, end up quitting. > [@](#): > > Teacher retention is a problem for the profession as a whole, so much so, I think we need to question if the 1950s model of teaching for a lifetime is really feasible. It should be an option for those who want to stay. > [@](#): > > Please provide evidence of how a emergency cert teacher working toward certification, or one who in fact is certified and doing their job, is a “waste.” Are you reading me here? You’re a teacher; right? A smart person? A sub does cost less than a certified teacher - sometimes half or less than half the cost, so you aren’t saving money there (not that I advocate subs all year long, though long term subs are often in place for cert teachers when the district gets greedy and doesn’t want to pay benefits). A district who spends money recruiting new teachers who have zero experience that are only going to leave in 2-5 years is wasting money. [\*\*High teacher turnover is costly. \*\*](http://nctaf.org/resources/news/press_releases/CTT.htm) To add: not that I’m cited in a paper or anything, but all former TFA teachers I know are doing something else now. All traditionally-certified teachers I knew upon graduation of college are still teaching. I’m sure TFA teachers want to help. We all do. We go in full steam and burn out quickly if we don’t have proper mentor teachers to help us manage our time/energies properly. But the difference between you and I is the level of commitment I make to my classroom/school/kids. TFA has been around since 1990. It’s a short-term solution to a long-term problem. Your cite that TFA alum go on to do admin, train other teachers, whatever, doesn’t mean anything because clearly **we still have a high teacher turnover problem and starting a charter school does _not_ address the need of public schooling**! Some charters are amazing and wonderful! But that’s _not_ helping public education, and Kipp’s link with _Waiting for Superman_ is a slap in the face to the teachers in the trenches that have been doing this for years and years. [KIPP Charter Schools Have Funding Edge, Study Says](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/03/31/135014989/kipp-charter-schools-have-funding-edge-study-says) > [@](#): > > One of America’s most successful charter-school networks receives more government money than it has previously admitted — and it’s also not as successful as it has stated, according to a new study. > > Researchers say that schools in the Knowledge Is Power Program have a much higher attrition rate than in the school systems from which they draw their students — especially among African-American children. TFA is just not a cost-effective (or in the battle over public education, productive) way of addressing the need to recruit and **retain** effective teachers who then battle with largely ineffective and highly politicized administrations. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/336 "2011-09-05T19:27:12Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I am not going to back off. I was responding to the idea that TFA teachers leave because they have other options and we don’t. Well, direct that elsewhere, because I never made that claim. I know plenty of trad cert teachers who are no longer teaching, because guess what? They had other options. > [@](#): > > If your teachers don’t stay in the class and they upset other teachers for contracts, I daresay you’re not helping as much as you claim. As far as I know, [TFA staffs and places teachers in districts where there are teacher shortages](http://educationnext.org/teachers-for-america/). I have never heard an example of a trad cert teacher being displaced by a TFA corps member. > [@](#): > > Actually, yes. I subbed at a KIPP school and I have friends that work in a few around the country. “Cherry-pick” - kick out students a lot easier, don’t take in those without papers, don’t take ESL students. I’m heavily involved in a KIPP school here and you know what their problem is? Lack of diversity. The school is about 98% Latino. Now I don’t know exactly why this is, and I’m not going to irresponsibly speculate, but I can assure you the kids at that school are from the city’s lowest SES areas as well as lowest performing schools. [The cherry-picking charge has been debunked, at least in one study.](http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/09/16/report-looks-at-cherry-picking-attrition-and-test-scores-at-kipp-schools/) > [@](#): > > It should be an option for those who want to stay. You lost me here. Is there something making it impossible for teachers to stay in the career for life if they choose to? No. But it does seem that a lot of teachers are making choices to leave for a variety of reasons. > [@](#): > > Are you reading me here? You’re a teacher; right? A smart person? > > A sub does cost less than a certified teacher - sometimes half or less than half the cost, so you aren’t saving money there (not that I advocate subs all year long, though long term subs are often in place for cert teachers when the district gets greedy and doesn’t want to pay benefits). > > A district who spends money recruiting new teachers who have zero experience that are only going to leave in 2-5 years is wasting money. [\*\*High teacher turnover is costly. \*\*](http://nctaf.org/resources/news/press_releases/CTT.htm) I know this is the Pit and all, and I thought we were operating at a higher level of discourse, but I’m happy to insult you if that’s where we’re headed. Yeah a sub is less than a certified teacher. Do you really think that they’re remotely equal? Every now and then someone with great credentials comes in the sub line, but mostly… they’re not comparable. If they were, they’d be a full-time teacher. You didn’t address if your critiques apply to alt cert teachers as well. Because to the Houston ISD, that’s what I was. Furthermore, districts don’t recruit TFA teachers. TFA has agreements with districts already in place, and the teachers work in those districts. The study you cite states that the teacher attrition rate is between 16-20%, and 46% of new teachers leave the profession after five years. So this is a profession problem, not something exclusive to TFA. So again, I’m not seeing why TFA has rankled your ire, but you don’t seem to have any for traditional certification programs that reflect the majority of these findings. > [@](#): > > To add: not that I’m cited in a paper or anything, but all former TFA teachers I know are doing something else now. All traditionally-certified teachers I knew upon graduation of college are still teaching. I work in a college of ed, so I might have an advantage. I know plenty of TFA alums who are still in schools. One is a principal (with a doctorate from an Ivy League school) in a low-resource school in town. Another is in his fifth year as an assistant principal in Western Massachusetts. I know two who are still teaching - not administrators, but teachers - for 18 and 16 years, respectively. The latter was my next door neighbor during my TFA commitment. My anecdotal data is as good as yours. > [@](#): > > I’m sure TFA teachers want to help. We all do. We go in full steam and burn out quickly if we don’t have proper mentor teachers to help us manage our time/energies properly. But the difference between you and I is the level of commitment I make to my classroom/school/kids. So there’s only one way to make a commitment to a classroom, a school, and kids? I’d better tell my colleagues working in education in any role outside of classroom teaching that we’re not as committed as you are. :rolleyes: I guess that goes for teachers who change schools, or get administrative certification and become APs/principals/superintendents, too? I could argue that policy briefs and articles and books I write have more impact than one teacher in a classroom, but that would be arrogant and stupid (and untrue). > [@](#): > > TFA has been around since 1990. It’s a short-term solution to a long-term problem. Your cite that TFA alum go on to do admin, train other teachers, whatever, doesn’t mean anything because clearly **we still have a high teacher turnover problem and starting a charter school does _not_ address the need of public schooling**! > > Some charters are amazing and wonderful! But that’s _not_ helping public education, and Kipp’s link with _Waiting for Superman_ is a slap in the face to the teachers in the trenches that have been doing this for years and years. > > [KIPP Charter Schools Have Funding Edge, Study Says](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/03/31/135014989/kipp-charter-schools-have-funding-edge-study-says) I agree that the teaching aspect is a short-term solution. But what do you propose take place as a long-term solution is being formulated? Nothing? Again, TFA is not anywhere near solving all the problems of urban education. I don’t have the numbers and I’m posting on the run, but with 43 regions, they’re making an impact. Your criticism would be valid if TFA (or me, or anyone else) claimed that this is THE SOLUTION to education reform. There are a multitude of reform efforts across this nation and I suspect we will need many of them to make a dent. You also haven’t considered the impact of TFA alumni, and I’m sorry, you seem to have ridiculous expectations of 33,000 people. You first dismiss the fact that a sizable number - the last one I saw was 61% - stay in the education field beyond two years, and 2/3 of alumni work in education full time. Over 500 are principals or school leaders. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect the challenges of public education to be resolved in 20 years, though I know folks are hard at work on it. I’m not going to castigate any group of educational reformers for not fixing the ills in urban and rural schools, whether they be trad cert, alt cert, TFA, or philanthropists, but you seem to have a target on one group, why is that? I do get it though; some trad cert teachers think that their route to the classroom is the only acceptable one, and feel the need to automatically dismiss every alternative. My first few months in my school, a lot of teachers blew me off because I was one of those “Teaching with America” interns (yeah, some didn’t know that I was actually working to my certification). It wasn’t until they saw the results in my classroom and with my kids (and I am not bragging here - I think I was average at best) as well as my commitment to the community that some of them “got me.” (I should note that at least 15 teachers out of a staff of around 70 left the school during my time there. None were TFA teachers.) Your sentence also makes it seem as if you are dichotomizing charter schools and public schools. Charter schools are public schools. I do agree that _Superman_ makes it seems as if the only option for kids in urban public schools is to attend a charter and I certainly think that’s wrong. Look, the issues that beguile and envelop public education, especially for low income and minority kids, are many and they are massive. It will take a multiple-pronged approach to address them. I’m simply saying that TFA as a movement is involved in that process. Like every organization (like traditional certification programs) it has shortcomings and flaws. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/337 "2011-09-05T19:35:59Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > I do get it though; some trad cert teachers think that their route to the classroom is the only acceptable one, and feel the need to automatically dismiss every alternative. FWIW, I see this especially among union-active teachers, and it bugs me. I want more money, sure, but I also want better schools. The best teacher I had in high school was an alt-cert teacher (the poor man left a lucrative microbiology career to teach high school science). There can be great alt-cert teachers, and I think that we ought to adopt a model that: 1. Recruits them persuasively; 2. Separates the wheat from the chaff (there are also terrible alt-cert folks); and 3. Ensures that the traditional path is more attractive to smart college kids than to dumb college kids. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/338 "2011-09-05T19:40:31Z")
If TFA has been around since 1990 and so many of you are going off into admin and other positions, why haven’t we seen a rapid change in how things are done? You’ve had two decades. TFA Replacing Teachers: [Boston](http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-07-29-teach-for-america_N.htm) > [@](#): > > In Boston, TFA corps members replaced 20 pink-slipped teachers, says Boston Teachers Union President Richard Stutman. “These are people who have been trained, who are experienced and who have good evaluations, and are being replaced by brand-new employees.” > > This month, he met with about 18 other local union presidents, all of whom said they’d seen teachers laid off to make room for TFA members. > > “I don’t think you’ll find a city that isn’t laying off people to accommodate Teach For America,” he says. Perhaps you just don’t read your own criticism? I don’t have issue with the unexperienced/never been trained/have no idea what they’re doing teachers serving hard to serve/place schools…provide they stick with the program. A two year commitment isn’t helping America’s schools; sorry. > [@](#): > > About two-thirds remain in education — **mostly in administrative or political jobs or working with policy or charitable groups** — though overall **only 29% of alumni are still in the classroom**. If someone said, “What do you do?” and I said, “I"m a teacher” when I really work in admin or for a non profit or for a senator or something, that’s a little misleading. They may work in something ‘education-related’, but it’s not being a teacher. There are no shortage of _education-related_ policy folk out there. Hardly a hole you’re filling. It’s not a secret that TFA is a gateway to other things…like maybe working at [Godlman Sachs](http://www.danagoldstein.net/dana_goldstein/2010/10/tfa-goldman-sachs-or-one-reason-its-hard-to-keep-people-in-the-teaching-profession.html)? Now, if teaching paid better and weren’t so degrading, I’m sure more TFA candidates would be likely to stay…because why would you waste a Duke University education on teaching? Of course the Department of Education and President I don’t Understand How Schools Work Obama is only too happy to give you $50m to continue your largely ineffective ways. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/339 "2011-09-05T19:41:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > FWIW, I see this especially among union-active teachers, and it bugs me. I want more money, sure, but I also want better schools. The best teacher I had in high school was an alt-cert teacher (the poor man left a lucrative microbiology career to teach high school science). There can be great alt-cert teachers, and I think that we ought to adopt a model that: > > 1. Recruits them persuasively; > 2. Separates the wheat from the chaff (there are also terrible alt-cert folks); and > 3. Ensures that the traditional path is more attractive to smart college kids than to dumb college kids. I don’t have an issue with alt-certified teachers. I have issue with recruiting alt-certified teachers for only a few years - especially if they’re replacing traditional teachers. I’ve seen great alt teachers! My mentor was one. That’s not the point of contention. The White Knight on a Horse Gonna Fix Your School mentality of TfA is also a little off-putting. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653/340 "2011-09-05T19:58:04Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > I’m heavily involved in a KIPP school here and you know what their problem is? Lack of diversity. The school is about 98% Latino. Um, the Kipp school here is largely Latino and maybe that’s because it’s in a Mexican American 'hood… > [@](#): > > Yeah a sub is less than a certified teacher. Do you really think that they’re remotely equal? In Colorado, a ‘long term sub’ is a position given to cred teachers without benefits. They have the same schedule without any paid days off or perks. > [@](#): > > The study you cite states that the teacher attrition rate is between 16-20%, and 46% of new teachers leave the profession after five years. So this is a profession problem, not something exclusive to TFA. But TFA is **not helping the problem**. It is instead **diverting funds** and making the problem worse. > [@](#): > > So there’s only one way to make a commitment to a classroom, a school, and kids? I’d better tell my colleagues working in education in any role outside of classroom teaching that we’re not as committed as you are. :rolleyes: I guess that goes for teachers who change schools, or get administrative certification and become APs/principals/superintendents, too? Everyone in urban ed clamors for a higher position. It’s where the pay is, plus they aren’t treated like shit. My point is that your model - recruiting smart people to become principals - isn’t addressing any need. We have plenty of people who already do admin. Most of them are former really awesome teachers. > [@](#): > > I agree that the teaching aspect is a short-term solution. But what do you propose take place as a long-term solution is being formulated? Not spending millions (billions?) in a 20 year teaching program that isn’t doing anything to alleviate the problem of critical teaching shortages. > [@](#): > > Nothing? Again, TFA is not anywhere near solving all the problems of urban education. I don’t have the numbers and I’m posting on the run, but with 43 regions, they’re making an impact. Your criticism would be valid if TFA (or me, or anyone else) claimed that this is THE SOLUTION to education reform. There are a multitude of reform efforts across this nation and I suspect we will need many of them to make a dent. So your way of reforming education is recruiting smart cats to teach for a few years? That’s your ‘reform’? > [@](#): > > I’m not going to castigate any group of educational reformers So TfA is an educational reform group? Do you propose on reforming ed by what? How again? > [@](#): > > Your sentence also makes it seem as if you are dichotomizing charter schools and public schools. Charter schools are public schools. They most certainly are not to be put in the same category! I hope you are really just trying to cover your ass and don’t mean it like that. [Yeah, they’re public. They receive public money](http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/26/are-charter-school-public-schools-i%E2%80%99m-afraid-not/). :rolleyes: As many have pointed out, you can be a $$ charter school with highly-educated teachers and tiny class sizes and extended school days and get money from Oprah and praise from Emmanuel and still have shitty shitty test scores. That’s you, [Urban Prep](http://michaelklonsky.blogspot.com/2011/04/urban-prep-gets-its-charter-renewed.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fed-up-with-teacher-hate-and-disrespect-in-this-country/594653.md?page=18)