# federal government shutdown **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 29, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079 "2017-11-29T18:49:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/61 "2017-11-30T20:08:35Z")
> [@SingleMalt](#): > > But, as I understand it, the problem that Ryan is facing is that there is a faction of Republicans that will vote against it (the “shut it down” Tea-Party types), so he needs some Democrats to buy in (Boehner’s strategy). The Republicans technically do not need the Democrats, but practicality is a different matter. If both Republicans and Democrats vote against, and the Republicans are the ones in charge and don’t _need_ the Democrats, I don’t see the blame sticking to the Democrats outside of the Fox News bubble. > > Keep in mind, the Republicans are the ones who have been shouting “Shut it down!” since 2011; it’s their brand now. In the House, it’s true that the Rs don’t need a single D vote. And indeed, their plan seems to be to proceed without any: > [@](#): > > [While the plan hasn’t been finalized, **the House would move first under this scenario, passing a bill with only Republican votes**.](https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/29/government-shutdown-2017-republicans-democrats-268176) In the Senate, however, **Chisquirrel** ’s (and your) claim falls apart, as there aren’t enough Rs to simply ignore the Ds: > [@](#): > > [The Senate would then try to follow suit, but it **would need to pick off at least eight Senate Democrats to clear the chamber’s higher 60-vote threshold**. Republicans believe that Schumer would come under heavy pressure from his own colleagues to avoid being blamed for a shutdown, GOP aides said.](https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/29/government-shutdown-2017-republicans-democrats-268176) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/62 "2017-11-30T20:12:12Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > **HurricaneDitka** , have you actually heard or read anyone else say something to the effect of “The Republicans want to fund the government, Democrats want to shut it down”? … I actually haven’t heard all that much discussion on the looming funding deadline at all, from anyone. ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/63 "2017-11-30T20:49:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In the House, it’s true that the Rs don’t need a single D vote. And indeed, their plan seems to be to proceed without any: > In the Senate, however, **Chisquirrel** ’s (and your) claim falls apart, as there aren’t enough Rs to simply ignore the Ds: Well, that Politico article is talking about a continuing resolution, not a budget bill, to kick the can down the road another month, and not every Republican is on board with that. Can Ryan get enough Republicans to support a continuing resolution? I imagine that he can, considering the deadline they’re facing. But it’s by no means a done deal. And, as a budget bill, it has to start in the House. If it can’t get past the House, then the Senate 60-vote threshold doesn’t really enter into it. (Of course, there’s nothing stopping the Senate from round-filing whatever the House sends and creating their own, but the House has to send _something_ over.) But as to optics and perceptions, the Tea Party has all but stitched the words “Shut It Down” to the bottom of their Gasden flags, and has been rallying around that battle cry for years now. Sure, the Fox propaganda machine will work to shift that perception, but it looks like a heavy lift. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/64 "2017-11-30T20:51:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [A Better Deal](https://www.democrats.senate.gov/abetterdeal). It gives broad overview strokes, with links to more specific summaries, with links to very detailed positions. I don’t see links to specific bills, but otherwise there’s a lot there to look at. Repairing infrastructure is a good idea, but I don’t see anyone making money from it except contractors and the illegals they hire. Watching the Broadway bridge being replaced last year, most of the guys I saw were Mexican. Perhaps some of them were citizens and not sending money to Mexico to support their families. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/65 "2017-11-30T21:50:42Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Repairing infrastructure is a good idea, but I don’t see anyone making money from it except contractors and the illegals they hire. Watching the Broadway bridge being replaced last year, most of the guys I saw were Mexican. Perhaps some of them were citizens and not sending money to Mexico to support their families. Okay, that’s something interesting to debate, but I’m not going to get into it here, because it’s pretty far afield IMO from this thread’s topic. I was just offering that link to counter the implication that Democrats weren’t offering a plan of their own. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/66 "2017-11-30T22:16:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay, that’s something interesting to debate, but I’m not going to get into it here, because it’s pretty far afield IMO from this thread’s topic. I was just offering that link to counter the implication that Democrats weren’t offering a plan of their own. Okay. 🙂 They could have better things in a plan, though. Making all medical costs deductible. Finding employment for large amounts of people laid off from an occupation. Coal miners, for example. But I digress again, and I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/67 "2017-11-30T22:39:58Z")
Fuckin’ liberals, choking off the miners while flinging themselves headlong into solar power! And not a moments thought about what to do when we’ve drained the sun! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/68 "2017-11-30T22:53:35Z")
That’s not a problem. We only tap the sun’s energy at night. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/69 "2017-11-30T23:07:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not a problem. We only tap the sun’s energy at night. Brilliant! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/70 "2017-12-01T01:28:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It seems like the shoe is on the other foot now, as is often the case in politics. We have SPOILER alerts: Shouldn’t this joke have merited a “Put your coffee down?” I’m now cleaning sputtered coffee off my screen. In between fits of guffawing I manage to type the following: The GOP has 240 Representatives in the House including every single Committee Chairman, and are ruling that institution with an Iron Thumb. The Oval Office is occupied by “the most Presidential and Republican President since Abe Lincoln,” and the Supreme Court has a majority of its members appointed by Republican Presidents — it’s probably the most repressive and right-wing court since the one that overruled Congress in _Dred Scott v. Sandford_ in 1857. And the U.S. Senate? There are 52 card-carrying members of the Republican Party now serving as U.S. Senators, compared with only 46 Democrats. The days of _Mr. Smith Goes to Washington_ are long in the past. The “Nuclear Options” have been exercised until none are left untried except thermonuclear annihilation itself, so it only takes 50 votes for the Senate to pass a budget. Not fifty-three, not fiftyish, that’s Fifty-zero with a Z. Yet despite that the GOP controls four out of four of the powerful bodies in Washington, the Democrats are scheduled to get the blame for any shutdown! How dare they vote against sending EPA workers to tear up more regulations? How dare they let Homeland officials take the day off when they could be discriminating against Muslims eight hours a day? How dare the Democrats shut down government? I just sputtered coffee all over my screen again. :o ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/71 "2017-12-01T03:22:26Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … The “Nuclear Options” have been exercised until none are left untried except thermonuclear annihilation itself, so it only takes 50 votes for the Senate to pass a budget. Not fifty-three, not fiftyish, that’s Fifty-zero with a Z. … In all your guffawing and coffee-sputtering you seem to have made a factual error here (two actually). 1. There’s definitely still a legislative filibuster in place. It has not yet been removed via the nuclear option, so there’s still a step short of “thermonuclear annihilation itself” that can be tried. This is (one of) the reason(s) that Congress hasn’t passed any significant legislation. 2. To pass a spending bill they’re going to need 60 votes for cloture, not just 50. See post #61 if you’re still confused about this. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/72 "2017-12-01T06:23:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In the Senate, however, **Chisquirrel** ’s (and your) claim falls apart, as there aren’t enough Rs to simply ignore the Ds: They need 60 to force a stop to debate. They don’t need 60 to pass. Should the Democrats decide to filibuster the spending bill (cite requested), then sure, you need 60. A supermajority is only required when you are trying to shove something through that the other side finds abhorrent, unless you’re McConnell or Reid and don’t give a shit about the rules. They already upped the ante with the Gorsuch. Are you trying to say there’s a line McConnell won’t cross? The turtle will cross every line he can reach, sometimes he’s just a little slow. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/73 "2017-12-01T06:37:01Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > … A supermajority is only required when you are trying to shove something through that the other side finds abhorrent… Wrong. 60 votes to pass any legislation the minority party even mildly objects to is pretty much the way the Senate has operated for years now. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/74 "2017-12-01T06:49:53Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > They need 60 to force a stop to debate. They don’t need 60 to pass. Should the Democrats decide to filibuster the spending bill (cite requested), then sure, you need 60. … You can’t pass it if you can’t force a stop to debate, ergo 60 votes are needed to pass. As for a cite, here: > [@](#): > > [While Republicans have control of Washington, GOP leaders have conceded that they will likely need Democratic votes to help pass spending bills due to potential opposition from conservatives in the House and because Senate Democrats can filibuster spending legislation. > > “We need 60 votes in the Senate to close off debate and so, with 52 Republicans, we can’t do it by ourselves,” said Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), McConnell’s top deputy. > > Schumer and Pelosi are using this leverage to insist on adding various policy issues to win their support for the year-end funding bill.]([Trump and Democrats trade insults to start tense month of negotiations on year-end priorities - The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/trump-signals-hard-line-against-democrats-ahead-of-crucial-talks-over-spending/2017/11/28/33f5d7a0-d446-11e7-95bf-df7c19270879_story.html)) > [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Are you trying to say there’s a line McConnell won’t cross? I’m saying he has not yet chosen to cross the line of nuking the legislative filibuster. Perhaps it’s because he doesn’t have the votes to do so. Perhaps it’s because he’s just a nice guy. Doesn’t really matter _why_, the fact remains that that “nuclear option” is still sitting on a shelf somewhere waiting to be used. That line hasn’t yet been crossed. ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/75 "2017-12-01T07:04:21Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > That is correct, it is not a given that federal employees will be paid. Congress would have to approve it, as they have in the past. > > There is also the issue that **a shutdown that began on Dec 8 would mean that feds would almost certainly not receive their mid December paycheck** If it were retroactively granted, it would be paid at the end of the month, or later. Not all federal employees are highly paid, or good with personal finance, so this would be a substantial inconvenience for some. If the Dems don’t start running ads after the shutdown with Trump photoshopped into The Grinch Who Stole Christmas from the kids of the federal employees, all of their consultants deserve to be fired. ETA: Also… War on Christmas, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/76 "2017-12-01T07:21:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You can’t pass it if you can’t force a stop to debate, ergo 60 votes are needed to pass. > > As for a cite, here: > > I’m saying he has not yet chosen to cross the line of nuking the legislative filibuster. Perhaps it’s because he doesn’t have the votes to do so. Perhaps it’s because he’s just a nice guy. Doesn’t really matter _why_, the fact remains that that “nuclear option” is still sitting on a shelf somewhere waiting to be used. That line hasn’t yet been crossed. That cite says nothing about Dems threatening to filibuster. And McConnell hasn’t had a chance to cross that line. The only major legislation to get past the House, the absolute joke of a healthcare bill, couldn’t even get a majority to get into reconciliation. The tax bill is looking to be a tossup for the same thing. The only time a filibuster was even threatened in the Senate, he blew the entire thing up. Democrats don’t need to kill anything, Republicans are doing it all on their own, which has been my point from the start. With majorities in both Houses and the White House, they can’t get shit done because they’re too busy eating their own young, between the Tea Party obstructionists and the few Republicans in the Senate with morals. The Democrats bailed out the Republicans on the debt ceiling increase. Why does it fall to them to keep the government running, as well? Can’t the majority that keeps crying how they’re going to do SO MUCH to help the American people come up with something that actually helps the American people? One party has repeatedly tried to govern. The other party has only knows how to throw tantrums and feces. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/77 "2017-12-01T07:24:55Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > That cite says nothing about Dems threatening to filibuster… Wrong again. > [@](#): > > Schumer and Pelosi are using this leverage … ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/78 "2017-12-01T14:57:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Wrong again. Well, what about Trump’s statements that he WANTS a shutdown? ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/79 "2017-12-01T15:48:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, what about Trump’s statements that he WANTS a shutdown? They can be read either as a continuance of the “Deconstruction of the Administrative State” policy…or a blustering temper tantrum from a child being told he’s going to be grounded. “Fine! I wanted to play in my room ANYWAY.” ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/80 "2017-12-01T15:50:27Z")
And now this: [Trump tells confidants that a government shutdown might be good for him](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-tells-confidants-that-a-government-shutdown-might-be-good-for-him/2017/11/30/e5328328-d5f5-11e7-a986-d0a9770d9a3e_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_shutdown-645pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.54f82dd98700): “President Trump has told confidants that a government shutdown could be good for him politically and is focusing on his hard-line immigration stance as a way to win back supporters unhappy with his outreach to Democrats this fall, according to people who have spoken with him recently.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079.md?page=5)