# federal government shutdown **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 29, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079 "2017-11-29T18:49:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/101 "2017-12-01T19:34:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know, what about it? In your efforts to argue that Dems are more likely to look bad in a government shutdown this year as compared to last years, you’ve consistently glossed over the elephant in the room: the President seems to relish the idea of a shutdown. What about that? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/102 "2017-12-01T19:43:39Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > You’re cute. Still nothing from Schumer? You move the goalposts too much to continue to play with. I’m satisfied that an objective reader will understand that the Democrats are using the threat of filibustering the spending bill to gain leverage in negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/103 "2017-12-01T19:46:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > In your efforts to argue that Dems are more likely to look bad in a government shutdown this year as compared to last years, you’ve consistently glossed over the elephant in the room: the President seems to relish the idea of a shutdown. > > What about that? I don’t think I’ve made the argument that “Dems are more likely to look bad in a government shutdown this year”. I think it’s a possibility, but far from a certainty. There are some factors working in their favor, and some against them. Trump appearing to relish the idea certainly doesn’t help the Republicans if that’s one of their goals. ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/104 "2017-12-01T20:09:22Z")
As much as I think “clean bills” are better (from either side), in the tactical sense I think that DACA is a pretty good hill to die on for the Dems. Photogenic, emotional, human-rights issue that generates the view of great fight and resistance to the worst anti-immigration aspects of Trumpism. Contrast this to past shutdowns, where the driving issues were arcane (to the general public) issues of debt and sequestration, and quixotic attempts to defund the (what we now know is somewhat popular) ACA. Those arcane fights gave a public perception of “you’re stomping your feet over something highly technical we don’t understand”. This time around DACA is much more relatable, and given the not-very-popular tax bill it’s not like Rs can claim fiscal responsibility at this point. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/105 "2017-12-01T20:30:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [Counting it the way Obama did](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/05/09/four-pinocchios-for-obamas-claim-that-republicans-have-filibustered-about-500-pieces-of-legislation/), there have been [74 Obama-defined “filibusters” so far this year](https://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/reference/cloture_motions/clotureCounts.htm). Funny thing about that, I was criticizing and correcting that sort of bullshit counting [a decade ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448712). 🙂 > [@](#): > > The ones that matter are, pretty obviously, where there was a majority ready to vote in favor of a bill, but they didn’t have the 60 votes necessary to pass a cloture motion and end the debate, so the minority blocked them by voting against cloture. It’s how many bills you block that had majority support. > > Did the GOP do this 62 times this year? [as claimed by the Campaign for America’s Future] No, it didn’t. How many times did it happen? > > 1. That’s how many bills the Senate GOP minority defeated through cloture motions, even though a majority favored the bill. That was from 2007, feel free to come up with a similar count for this year. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/106 "2017-12-01T20:38:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Well, first of all, I’m not really blaming anyone. But oftentimes, the blame falls on the party that is voting against the bill’s passage. In this case, that would be the Democrats. If people blamed the Republicans for forcing a shutdown over Obamacare, then I’d think they would get even worse blame over DACA. DACA is more politically popular than Obamacare, and apart from immigration zealots, there’s little sense of urgency to ditch it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/107 "2017-12-01T20:38:49Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Funny thing about that, I was criticizing and correcting that sort of bullshit counting [a decade ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448712). 🙂 > > That was from 2007, feel free to come up with a similar count for this year. Kudos to you for calling out misinformation. The reason I linked to WaPo’s Four Pinocchios fact check was to show that there are significant issues with the 74 number too. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/108 "2017-12-02T01:35:50Z")
It is important to keep in mind that the Trumpista GOP is trying to pass major legislation, including the gargantuan change to tax code, _ **without holding any hearings.** _ The ACA legislation was subject to 47 Congressional hearings; hundreds of witnesses were called; amendments by both D’s and R’s were debated; etc. (Despite all this, the GOP said the legislation was “jammed down their throats.”) Contrast that with the GOP’s plan for massive transfer of wealth to the rich. How many hearings are scheduled on that before the vote? 47? No, of course not. 10? 5? Even 1? No. _ **The GOP will allow Zero hearings on this gargantuan rip-off.** _ What do the Board’s R’s think of this? Are they proud of their boys for attempting to jam such a massive change down the throats of American people? Mnuchin has said on multiple occasions that he has “hundreds of Treasury officials working around the clock” to study the tax proposal in order to refute the claims of CBO, etc. Funny thing though: The career Treasury officials who would be in charge of this “around the clock” study, if it existed, have told journalists _ **there is no such study.** _ In fact, all the energy GOP Congresscritters should be spending on legislation or helping America is spent on ass-licking flattery of their Dear Leader — a leader so incompetent that even his own hand-picked Secretary of State calls him a “f\*cking moron.” If a writer for _House of Cards_ tried to depict behavior like we see now, the script would have been rejected as too far-fetched. I look forward to the day when the word “Republican” can be used by itself as shorthand for this sickness. If an ugly communist government gains a foothold somewhere they won’t call themselves “Soviet-style” — that word is a pejorative. If a Party patterned after the American GOP gains a foothold in Eastern Europe it won’t call itself a “Nazi” Party — that word has become a pejorative. I look forward to the day when Mods will debate whether “Republican” can be used here at SDMB outside the Pit. _ **Meanwhile, I will use the word as shorthand for this sickness.** _ > [@howye](#): > > And this should have applied when a Democrat was President. > > And it shouldn’t be an issue in the first place. > > Why is it when an R does something it is ok, but Dems never should? Yes, Republicans are … _ **Republican** _. I notice you just call them ‘R’. :rolleyes: Have the Mods started issuing Warnings for writing out the full pejorative? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, a clean bill. Both sides are at fault, the GOP more so, of course. “Both sides are at fault.” Get a clue, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/109 "2017-12-02T01:44:44Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … What do the Board’s R’s think of this? … This one thinks you may have posted in the wrong thread if you want to discuss the tax bill. It’s [over there](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=837434). ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/110 "2017-12-02T06:01:52Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > If people blamed the Republicans for forcing a shutdown over Obamacare, then I’d think they would get even worse blame over DACA. DACA is more politically popular than Obamacare, and apart from immigration zealots, there’s little sense of urgency to ditch it. Personally I think the Democrats should tie their cooperation to CHIP being funded, not DACA. Sure, American-raised kids who are employed getting deported to countries they don’t even remember is bad, but the optics are even worse for 9 million American children losing healthcare, and thousands of them **dying** because the Republicans refuse to do their jobs to even the bare minimum and fund a $13.6 billion dollar program while they give $1.5 trillion in tax cuts to the rich. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/111 "2017-12-02T11:22:09Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > Personally I think the Democrats should tie their cooperation to CHIP being funded, not DACA. Throw 'em both in there. If the Republicans are going to shoot themselves, make sure they have the double-barrelled shotgun 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/112 "2017-12-02T12:09:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Kudos to you for calling out misinformation. The reason I linked to WaPo’s Four Pinocchios fact check was to show that there are significant issues with the 74 number too. My point was that as a reply to my question, “How much else has the GOP Congress even tried to do this year?”, your bringing up that count was a total irrelevancy. Feel free to come up with something meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/113 "2017-12-02T12:12:08Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Throw 'em both in there. If the Republicans are going to shoot themselves, make sure they have the double-barrelled shotgun 😃 Hell, go **big**. Shut down the government until they kill the tax bill. If they get it to Trump’s desk before Friday night, shut down the government until they repeal it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/114 "2017-12-02T16:31:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Hell, go **big**. Shut down the government until they kill the tax bill. If they get it to Trump’s desk before Friday night, shut down the government until they repeal it. “We’re going to throw a tantrum and shut down the government until you raise people’s taxes” is not how political battles are won in this country. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/115 "2017-12-02T17:39:16Z")
> [@howye](#): > > And this should have applied when a Democrat was President. > > And it shouldn’t be an issue in the first place. > > Why is it when an R does something it is ok, but Dems never should? Because the Dems dont want to shut the government down, the GOP does. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/116 "2017-12-02T17:40:50Z")
> [@squidfood](#): > > As much as I think “clean bills” are better (from either side), in the tactical sense I think that DACA is a pretty good hill to die on for the Dems. Photogenic, emotional, human-rights issue that generates the view of great fight and resistance to the worst anti-immigration aspects of Trumpism. This time around DACA is much more relatable, and given the not-very-popular tax bill it’s not like Rs can claim fiscal responsibility at this point. No, actually \*no issue \*is proper to threaten a shut down with. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/117 "2017-12-02T17:42:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “We’re going to throw a tantrum and shut down the government until you raise people’s taxes” is not how political battles are won in this country. No one is asking anyone to\* raise\* taxes. The tax bill gives huge cuts to the rich, and does so by massively increasing the Debt. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/118 "2017-12-02T17:55:55Z")
How about we talk real nice to them? So we don’t alienate the people who hate us and everything we stand for, plus a few things we don’t? That was the big problem before, how we were being so mean that Donald, of House Harkonnen, worst of his name…won everybody over with his kindly and warm generosity. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/119 "2017-12-02T18:02:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No one is asking anyone to\* raise\* taxes. …despite the fact that taxes should have been raised on them years ago. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079/120 "2017-12-02T18:37:44Z")
Those that wish the dems should demand CHIP and DACA concessions to fund the gov’t are playing right into the republicans’ playbook. They intentionally chose not to fund CHIP and Trump intentionally killed DACA for the purpose of having bargaining chips for this type of fight. The democrats are not getting anything from this and just will just solidify the perception of weak effort on the part of Chuck/Nancy. My advice, go big. Come up with a tax plan that costs the same as the repubicans’ plan that benefits the working class, insist on implementing this as a better deal. Solidify Obamacare’s funding into law to where republicans will be forced to vote FOR funding the ACA. Let the gov’t shut down and grow a pair. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-government-shutdown/803079.md?page=7)