Federal Money, Faith Based Charities & Family Planning

Great Debates
21

Spiritus Mundi, Bricker: I think it is safe to say that, while Cheney’s statements are ambiguous as English statements, in political-speak Cheney pretty openly declared his intention to overturn RvW.

This anti-Creationist says bring it on! Creation “Scientists” are constantly complaining that they can’t get funding for their research. I say let them have the money and let them embarrass themselves. It will just strengthen the case for evolution. The fact is, Creation “Science” isn’t about research, it’s about sifting through research that has already been done for post hoc “evidence”. The foremost Creationist is a lawyer. What does that say about the strength of their dedication to research? I doubt that most of these people could write a grant proposal if their life depended on it. And if they were to get a grant, they would be required to report all of their results, not just the ones that agree with their position.

22

I would have to agree with The Ryan here on the subject of federal funds being used to fund creationism “research.” Let them do it and see what they can come up with. My guess would be nothing. To paraphrase J.S. Mill, when you are in possession of the truth, allowing someone to speak falsely only reaffirms your knowledge of the truth. Same thing here.

Although, to be honest, I doubt it will get that far. Allowing federal money to faith based charity at least has a pretense of being an honest attempt at fixing some problems, allowing federal money for creationism research hardly has that semi-redeeming quality.

23

“CAPE CANAVERAL, Florida (Reuters) – A Delta 2 rocket lifted off this morning carrying NASA’s new Ajalon Explorer probe. The controversial $500 million probe is designed to search for the ‘missing day’ which would have resulted from the Sun standing still as described in the Bible in Joshua 10:12-13…”

24

Among the programs that could be incorporated under this new sectarian “charitable choice” there are, for instance, addiction-rehab programs in which “spiritual renewal” is the main tool for cleaning up – i.e. the recovering addict is preached to and is to call explicitly upon the God of that congregation (as opposed to a vague “higher power”) for “healing”; literacy programs based on religious readings; activities run by smaller congregations or denominations who feel they can’t spin off an independent charitable entity. But the real difference is of having funds for the church/congregation/denomination itself to directly provide services as part of their ministry.

The rub may come when someone brings up accountability – as in, “open the books and show me where the money went.”

There may be quite a few denominations or congregations who say “no thanks” to being entangled with Uncle S. Let’s hope so.

25

I, too, am waiting with interest to see what will happen when non-Christian “faith based” (I hate that term!) organizations apply for federal bucks. The religious right will probably not really want to see funds go to Jewish organizations, let alone the Wiccans, the Muslims, the Budhists, etc. Is government now to define exactly which are “real” religions and which are not? That should be fun to watch.

26

to see (unless I missed it in my quick scan) that no right-wing Shrub supporter Doper has popped in to try and justify what is NOTHING LESS THAN A FUCKING OUTRAGE…sorry…that’s one reason i didn’t start the thread, i knew I’d end up screaming hysterically.

The hypocrisy isn’t surprising, after all, we had such blatant demonstrations of hypocrisy in from bush and co. oin the election mess, how could it be? - but still, it boggles the mind! Talk about both sides of the mouth. I am so angry, so horrified, so unbelievably pissed off and mortified… and where is the outrage in Congress? Why is this going down so quietly, basically?

HELLO OUT THERE?

ARGGHH!!!

How is it possible that the Shrub could have ended up being * so much worse than my worst fears??!?!! * Let’s see, I’m the president, so I guess that means I get to piss on the Constitution!

I’d cry, except if I start now I won’t stop for 4 years.

27

Oh, they’ll allow some money to go to Jewish organizations so they can claim to represent “Judeo-Christian values.”

With the others, I don’t know that it will so much be specific exclusion or simply exclusion because the organizations aren’t there. For example, many Christian groups already have charity set-ups and will be able to apply for money. Not too many similar Wiccan groups exist.

On a related note, here is a quote from Clarence Page’s column in today’s Chicago Tribune:

*The government “cannot fund and will not fund religious activities,” Bush said Tuesday. “But when people of religious faith provide social services, we will not discriminate against them.”

Oh? Judging by his record, discrimination “against” religious groups should be the least of their worries.

For example, while Bush was governor of Texas his state gave $8,000 to a church-run jobs program that required Bible study, according to a suit by the American Jewish Congress and the Texas Civil Rights Project.

The program, called the Jobs Partnership of Washington County, described itself as teaching participants to “find employment through a relationship with Jesus Christ.” It bought Bibles for them and, in evaluation forms, a third of the students said they had been pressured to join a church or change their beliefs.

Quite the opposite of discriminating against religious groups, Bush hinted, as he established a White House office for faith-based and community groups, that they will receive preference. “When we see social needs in America,” he said, “my administration will look first to faith-based programs and community groups, which have proven their power to save and change lives.”

Look first? Does that mean faith-based groups will receive some sort of favorable consideration compared to secular groups?

Which should make religious leaders wonder which faiths will receive the favorable consideration and which will not.*

28

I’ve been trying my damndest to give Dubya the benefit of the doubt here, because I can’t believe that someone who was nearly elected President :slight_smile: would have the cojones to pull some of the contradictory stunts he’s pulled lately. So here is my thinking:

We all know that Bush has the reputation for being, um, not the sharpest crayon in the box. We also know that he is not that interested in the details of policy (as he demonstrated resoundingly in the debates) and that his way of doing things is by delegation (which makes his Cabinet choices that much scarier, although that’s another thread).

Given those facts, one can assume that these policies are not Bush’s ideas. They are being sold to Bush in exactly the same way that Bush is selling them to the American people. He doesn’t realize the broader implications of the policies (closing any federally-funded medical clinic that discusses abortion with its patients; allowing creationists to apply for gov’t grants, etc.) because no one tells him about them and he doesn’t think about the policies enough to come up with them on his own.

What’s more, the people selling him the ideas know damn well what the broader implications are. The broader implications are the whole point; they’re just coating them in enough Compassionate Conservativism that Bush is willing to swallow them whole without asking questions.

In other words, I don’t think Bush is malicious; I think he is a clueless pushover who is beholden to the Religious Right. I wish he were just malicious.

Dr. J

29

Every day since January 20, I wake up and read the newspapers with dread. It’s like everyday is a bizarre Christmas day, where instead of looking forward to freshly wrapped presents of joy, I have to deal with a frightening new policy. And instead of a jolly ole elf, it’s a mean-spirited Shrub spreading not joy, but rather fear, hostility, and hypocracy.
OY! It’s going to be a long four years.

30

Well, this article is certainly illuminating.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010201/pl/charities_abuses_1.html

31

There’s another big element of hypocrisy in this whole mess, over and above the church/state issues. For the last twenty years, drug treatment and rehab funding has been steadily eroding. The tough-on-crime folks (which includes the “new Democrat” represented by Clinton’s crowd) have thrown more and more money at the supermax facilities that are designed to house the junkies and mentally ill during their longer and longer sentences, while there’s less and less money being spent on drug counseling and other similar kinds of medical treatment.

And now Bush comes along and says that exactly these sorts of programs now deserve federal funding, as long as they’re organized and promoted by religious organizations. What the hell? The secular programs have been shoved past the back burner, fighting for every last nickel and dime, and now Bush wants to open the floodgate for their religious counterpart? Hypocrisy, thy name is Shrub.

I find it interesting that none of Bush’s apologists has appeared here and tried to offer a defense for what is, by any definition, an indefensible policy.

pepperlandgirl: It’s going to be a long two years. That’s my only comfort – that Bush is going to alienate the mainstream so badly that 2002 sees Congress handed back to the Democrats by a disgusted public, and Bush gets to sit on his thumbs and whine until he’s ousted in 2004. Of course, it can be said that Clinton nearly fell into the same trap, with the gays-in-the-military order, not to mention the health-care-reform debacle, and everyone assumed he’d be dead in 1996. Lucky for him, he figured it out, and retreated to the center (or to somewhere right of center, more accurately). If I were a Republican, I’d be desperately hoping Bush realizes what an ass he’s being, because of the long-term damage he’s doing to the party. I’m not a Republican, so I’m just gritting my teeth and waiting for payback, hoping the country isn’t dragged backward too far.

32

OhMyGosh! The Dubya gaze is catching!

Otherwise, I agree completely – it’s not two weeks into the term, and already I can’t believe the boneheaded stupidity this idiot fraud has been peddling. The only thing more depressing than seeing Dubya try to sell his programs is watching the Republicans all tow the party line and support its stupidity.

33

DoctorJ: In other words, I don’t think Bush is malicious; I think he is a clueless pushover who is beholden to the Religious Right.

I have a different explanation, as per my “cynical” speculations above: that is, I think Bush is faced with the task of justifying another massive upward redistribution of wealth via his tax-cutting, pro-corporate, anti-government proposals. Given the extent to which the rich have already gotten much richer recently, and the fact that we’re facing an economic downturn, this looks kind of hard to justify from the point of view of the middle-class taxpayer. Solution: the Reagan Runaround, where you harp on your devotion to socially conservative “values” to the point where conservatively minded people in the lower brackets accept you wholeheartedly as somebody fighting on their side against the evil forces of secular liberalism and fail to notice that your economic policies actually make things worse in their workplaces, communities, and schools. Dubya may be no Ronald Reagan, but it seems to be working for him.

34

Maybe you should have the mods put some variation of “Dubya’s an idiot” in the title, that always seems to bring them running.

35

And even MORE depressing is watching the Democrats supporting Bush’s inititives in the name of “bipartisanship”. I hate that word!

36

I read an article today in the Chicago Tribune (at least I think that’s where it was – I read a couple of newspapers each day) in which several ministers were quoted as being skeptical of the program. For one thing, one pointed out, his drug rehab programs are based on giving the addict something more powerful than his addition: Jesus. How will this guy take religion out of his program? Answer: He can’t. Just like many others can’t. Which is why this is such a horrible idea. Not that logic will have any effect on Bush…

37

That’s precisely my problem with AA and being forced to attend for DUI purposes. The Jesus huggers at AA say you can “make the doorknob your higher power”. Right. But you have to have some sort of higher power. And the government can force you to attend this dangerous form of group therapy or withhold your driving privleges. You can’t remove the cornerstone from the plan and still complete the 12 steps, so you are automatically punished if you aren’t a god fearin’, church goin’ religious sort. This has been going on for years, and Bush’s plan is only going to make it worse.

He said he doesn’t care “which” God we pray to–as long as we’re praying (sigh), he’s a happy little zealot.

38

In the deep dark recesses of my memory, I thought I’d heard of a case being overturned when a judge mandated AA, for exactly those reasons.

39

I was shocked and dismayed when Dubya put the ban on support for family planning organizations that even mention the dreadful A word. I went reeling off my computer desk chair when he announced the availability of govt funds to faith based organizations for social services… “ah, sir, ah there’s a bit of policy inconsistency b/w these two decisions…sir, sir, hey SIR!!!”

So I decided, like many other smart folks, to make a charitable [ie tax deductable] donation to Planned Parenthood of America. Hey, they have a special gift program where you contribute [online if you want] in honor
of whomever for President’s Day. You can dedicate your contribution in memory of whomever [I dedicated mine to the 600,000 plus maternal deaths worldwide and in hope to lower this rate with the provision of safe and comprehensive family planning services including complete patient education on her options]. Planned Parenthood will send a gift to Dubya, in honor of all Presidents, consisting of a list of names and dedications contributed to Planned Parenthood.

I felt wonderfully wicked and thoroughly satisfied that I did my civic duty to let Dubya know how I feel about his decree to ban funds to any organization which even mentions that A word.

Now I am trying to figure out what to do about that faith based crap because I strongly agree with the current constitutional barrier between the state and religion … any ideas?

40

Well, if you’re in a donating mood anyway, do what I did – give money to Americans United for Separation of Church and State. They’re going to have a long four years ahead of them.