# Federal or state budget cuts - where's the difficulty in deciding what to cut? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771 "2011-02-09T16:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/61 "2011-02-15T22:57:55Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > WE obviously need to increase education. I believe the U.S. already spends the most on education per child, or at least it’s near the top, but is only barely in the top 20 in educational outcome. Clearly, education spending isn’t the solution. I’d look at breaking up the teacher’s unions, opening up more competition, reforming public sector pensions, and allow more non-traditional education streams such as apprenticeship or allowing people with industry training but not teaching degrees to teach if they can get hired. I’m tired of teachers being held up as saints who can fix everything so long as they are given more pay and benefits. There are a hell of a lot of poor teachers in the system. Let’s dump them. I’d rather my daughter be in a class of 50 kids with one great teacher than be in a class of 25 with a teacher who doesn’t give a damn because she’s got job security. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/62 "2011-02-16T02:16:51Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d rather my daughter be in a class of 50 kids with one great teacher than be in a class of 25 with a teacher who doesn’t give a damn because she’s got job security. When you have a class of 50 kids, you end up with about 47 kids who have no teacher at all, and the other three who have a parole officer instead of a teacher. It doesn’t matter _how_ good a teacher you are; no public school teacher can handle class sizes that large. Private schools _might_ be able to get some semblance of education out of that, but only because they can kick out the problem students, and even then, the quality of education is going to be pretty low. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/63 "2011-02-16T02:43:07Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’d rather my daughter be in a class of 50 kids with one great teacher than be in a class of 25 with a teacher who doesn’t give a damn because she’s got job security. Take it from me, you wouldn’t. Back when I was in school at the height of the baby boom, I was in Catholic school with class sizes of 40+ every year.Since it was not a public school, they had complete freedom to kick out any student at any time for any reason. so discipline was never a real problem. What was left were students who were at least compliant, if not engaged, and teachers who were left teaching either the top 5, the middle 30 or the bottom 5 in every class. No time for questions, no time for one-on-one interactions, no time for anything except reading from the book. Hell, even fire drills took extra long because the teachers had to count heads and make sure all 40 of their students were in the same place at the same time. Be careful what you wish for. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/64 "2011-02-16T03:03:48Z")
When I was a kid, we always had classes of 30+. 35 students was common. For three years between grades 4, 5 and 6 our school had an ‘open classroom’ program where about 150 kids were together in a big open space with a handful of roving teachers. I went to public school. My daughter has a class size of around 30 kids. This is in Canada. My era’s kids got better test scores and better educations than the kids today get, and Canadians are kicking America’s butt in education. Class size is certainly important, and smaller is better. But it’s not anywhere near the top of the list when it comes to what’s wrong with education today. Looking at how my daughter is taught, I’d have to say that the biggest factor in whether she has a good year in school or not is the quality of the teachers she gets - and she’s had some _horrible_ ones. She’s had teachers who didn’t know the material they were teaching, teachers who were simply burned out and demanded that the kids sit quietly and fill out handout after handout and not ask questions, teachers who were abusive, who wouldn’t take the effort to sort out who was wrong in an altercation, and so it goes. Good teachers make all the difference, and despite the rhetoric about how the vast majority of teachers are great and wonderful child-loving educators, in my experience that just isn’t true. Teachers fall on a bell curve of competency like everyone else - only the teachers on the tail end stay in their jobs. Other fields churn through people, retaining the good ones and easing out the bad ones. Educators show up to stay. But this is a hijack of the thread. Suffice it to say that I’d cut half of the Department of Education’s funding tomorrow, remove tenure for all educators, allow states to set their own curriculums without interference from the federal government, and allow any school to hire anyone they want as a teacher, regardless of whether they belong to the NEA or went through a formal teaching education. I’d make them pass a competency exam in the subject they want to teach, then leave the rest of the decision up to the principal of the school - but I’d hold the Principal accountable as well for poor results. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/65 "2011-02-16T03:38:06Z")
> [@Heyoka13](#): > > (the whole idea here is to take the money out of poverty. Take out the incentive, and people will naturally want to quit doing it) I think this is flawed. Being poor sucks. Being on ‘assistance’ looks a lot like being poor, which is to say it also sucks. It is quite a generalization to claim that people are ‘incentivized’ to be poor, and that’s why they don’t work more. If you’re the contemplative type, meditate on the phrase, ‘take the money out of poverty’. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/66 "2011-02-16T03:42:31Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > As a Libertarian Republican - if the Democrats would cut programs to balance the budget at current levels, I would support tax increases to then pay down the debt. What I do NOT want is tax increases to just pay for a bloated budget. Bundle the cuts with an increase. Not a big fan of Libertarians or Republicans, but this doesn’t sound so crazy. Except… revenues are way down because of the recession. Can’t we balance the budget for more normal levels, while raising taxes on wealthy people? ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/67 "2011-02-16T05:01:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But this is a hijack of the thread. Suffice it to say that I’d cut half of the Department of Education’s funding tomorrow, remove tenure for all educators, allow states to set their own curriculums without interference from the federal government, and allow any school to hire anyone they want as a teacher, regardless of whether they belong to the NEA or went through a formal teaching education. I’d make them pass a competency exam in the subject they want to teach, then leave the rest of the decision up to the principal of the school - but I’d hold the Principal accountable as well for poor results. You’d have my vote. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/68 "2011-02-16T15:35:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But this is a hijack of the thread. Suffice it to say that I’d cut half of the Department of Education’s funding tomorrow, remove tenure for all educators, allow states to set their own curriculums without interference from the federal government, and allow any school to hire anyone they want as a teacher, regardless of whether they belong to the NEA or went through a formal teaching education. I’d make them pass a competency exam in the subject they want to teach, then leave the rest of the decision up to the principal of the school - but I’d hold the Principal accountable as well for poor results. I worry about the funding cuts, if only because teaching pays poorly enough as it stands that I don’t know you’ll get qualified teachers even with the looser requirements for teaching (that I agree would work well, with a sufficiently well-designed competency exam that included a pedagogy evaluation in addition to subject-matter competency). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/69 "2011-02-16T16:18:55Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yeah, except that it doesn’t. For example, Obama has already punted on those cuts to doctor’s fees that were baked into the CBO estimate. Also, it ‘captured’ 500 billion in cuts to Medicare, which either won’t happen or, if they had happened without Obamacare, would have cut the deficit by 500 billion. > > Saying that the new health care plan reduces the deficit is really just playing games with the numbers. In fact, it increases government expenses quite a bit, and only becomes slightly deficit neutral because it raises taxes to pay for it or because it counts cuts that could happen whether or not the program is implemented. The bottom line is that the government’s entitlement commitments are _greater_ with the the new program than they would be without it. > > As an analogy, let’s say that I was living on increasing credit every month because my fancy cable bill costs $100/mo and I lease two cars for $1000 per month. > > My friends tell me that I can get my house in order by selling one of my cars, saving $500/mo, and cutting my cable bill. My 'solution to that is to sell both cars, get rid of my cable, and buy a new, even fancier car for $1050/mo. Hey, I’ve cut $50/mo from my expenses, right? I’m fiscally prudent! > > In fact, what I did was take an easy $500/mo cut I could have made by selling one of my cars and turned it into a $50/mo savings by buying a new luxury car. I’m still deep in the red each month, but now I’ve eliminated one of my easy cuts. It’s going to be even harder to get back into black now, since if I sell the new car I have no transportation at all, and since I used half my cable budget as well, I don’t even have that to cut any more. > > That’s what Obamacare did - it took the lowest-hanging fruit, the easiest cuts to make, and used the revenue from them to pay for a new government entitlement that people will depend on. Then it added a bunch of new tax hikes to make up the rest. But even then it couldn’t get to deficit neutrality, so gimmicks were added such as delaying the spending for three years to make the numbers work. > > Oh, and even with all that, it’s now becoming clear that it won’t be deficit neutral, let alone deficit negative. The 3-year interim financing for health insurance before the exchanges start up turned out to be under-funded by half. The 39 billion in supposed ‘savings’ from the reduction of fraud by imposing 1099 requirements on small business is going to be dropped. And the cuts to physician’s fees are not going to be implemented either. And this plan hasn’t even really gone into effect yet. Of course government plans NEVER go over budget once the implementation details are worked out, do they? > > I wouldn’t be surprised to see that Obama’s health care plan ultimately results in an increase of the deficit of at least 200-400 billion dollars in the first ten years. I trust CBO’s opinion more than yours. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/70 "2011-02-16T17:24:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But this is a hijack of the thread. Suffice it to say that I’d cut half of the Department of Education’s funding tomorrow, remove tenure for all educators, allow states to set their own curriculums without interference from the federal government, and allow any school to hire anyone they want as a teacher, regardless of whether they belong to the NEA or went through a formal teaching education. I’d make them pass a competency exam in the subject they want to teach, then leave the rest of the decision up to the principal of the school - but I’d hold the Principal accountable as well for poor results. As a citizen of Alabama, PLEASE don’t insist that states should have complete control over the curriculum. I don’t really trust the people that would get elected to make these decisions. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/71 "2011-02-16T18:13:24Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I worry about the funding cuts, if only because teaching pays poorly enough as it stands that I don’t know you’ll get qualified teachers even with the looser requirements for teaching. You’d get better ones. A motivated, idealistic 24 year old is very often going to do as good or or better job teaching middle school English than a tenured 49 year old who’s been at it 25 years and is just waiting for the pension. The former makes $32k. The latter makes about twice that. Very often, passion and energy count for more in teaching than do credentials or experience. And I say that as 41 year old teacher. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/72 "2011-02-16T18:17:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because the larger the agency for cutting, the more highly paid lobbyists and union reps there will be with a detailed plan on how cutting somewhere else will work better. > > And another whole raft of people who will assert that no cuts are needed - just raise taxes on “the rich”, where “rich” is defined as “someone else”. > > Regards, > Shodan Not at all. It is defined as those making more than 250 thou a year. That has been made clear and obvious for a couple years. You should make random stabs at being honest occasionally. It would keep us on our toes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/73 "2011-02-16T18:36:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But this is a hijack of the thread. Suffice it to say that I’d cut half of the Department of Education’s funding tomorrow, remove tenure for all educators, allow states to set their own curriculums without interference from the federal government, and allow any school to hire anyone they want as a teacher, regardless of whether they belong to the NEA or went through a formal teaching education. I’d make them pass a competency exam in the subject they want to teach, then leave the rest of the decision up to the principal of the school - but I’d hold the Principal accountable as well for poor results. Sure, but then you know in many States they’d be teaching the Bible in Science class along with two hours of prayer a day, in others you’d be fired if you didn’t donate/work/vote for the party in charge, and in others all the teachers would be some politicos In-Laws, right?:rolleyes: **Nate** makes a good pioint. Tenure is a Good Thing, it makes sure teachers aren’t fired for political or religous reasons. And of course, cutting half the budget would mean classes doubled in size, teaching in a open field.:dubious: You currently have the power to hold the Principal accountable now- I assume you live in a State with elected School boards. Just get out there and vote one in that does what you want, or failing that run yourself. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/74 "2011-02-16T18:44:05Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Leaving aside the fact that “Obamacare” doesn’t even kick in fully until 2014, so eliminating it wouldn’t have any effect whatsoever on the current deficit, let’s take a look at some of the other “entitlements and other outright wastes of taxpayers money.” > > Social Security. In 1985, [38 million people received SS.](http://ssaonline.us/policy/docs/ssb/v50n5/v50n5p5.pdf) In 2010 it was [51 million](http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/quickfacts/stat_snapshot/). Medicare numbers will be substantially the same. So Social Security added about 33% more beneficiaries since 1985, and you estimate Medicare is about the same. And yet spending on Social Security has risen 38%, and Medicare and Medicaid 75% _just since 2000_. Were the Clinton years so terrible? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/75 "2011-02-16T18:47:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, but then you know in many States they’d be teaching the Bible in Science class along with two hours of prayer a day. He’s not proposing abolishing the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/76 "2011-02-16T18:48:57Z")
EVERYBODY WILL STOP USING THE TERM “OBAMACARE”. **NOW!** :mad: There. Budget problems all fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/77 "2011-02-16T18:52:35Z")
As I said in the Pit the other day: it’s here, it’s handy, get used to it. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/78 "2011-02-16T18:55:21Z")
> [@furt](#): > > You’d get better ones. A motivated, idealistic 24 year old is very often going to do as good or or better job teaching middle school English than a tenured 49 year old who’s been at it 25 years and is just waiting for the pension. The former makes $32k. The latter makes about twice that. Very often, passion and energy count for more in teaching than do credentials or experience. And I say that as 41 year old teacher. Conversely, I’d love to teach and have experience teaching both college-level and high-school level audiences (TAing and SAT prep, respectively), but as you imply, even a highly senior 20-year teacher makes 64k or so and I’m making 72k now by NOT teaching computer science. Which I don’t think is right, considering I don’t personally think that making the computers work nicely is nearly as important as passing along skills to the next generation, but I like money more than ideals in this case. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/79 "2011-02-16T20:03:27Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > He’s not proposing abolishing the Constitution. "_allow states to set their own curriculums without interference from the federal government"_ is exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771/80 "2011-02-16T20:10:10Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Conversely, I’d love to teach and have experience teaching both college-level and high-school level audiences (TAing and SAT prep, respectively), but as you imply, even a highly senior 20-year teacher makes 64k or so and I’m making 72k now by NOT teaching computer science. > > Which I don’t think is right, considering I don’t personally think that making the computers work nicely is nearly as important as passing along skills to the next generation, but I like money more than ideals in this case. Except by that logic–we need to pay enough so that all the most skilled people are all teachers–we’d soon wind up paying teachers a million dollars a year. “After all, it’s for the children…” Many of the skills that make you worth 72k as a programmer would be wasted in a classroom: 99% of students are not learning advanced stuff. They need to learn to use applications, and the older and more more tech-oriented ones are going to be doing basic programming. They don’t need a PhD, they need someone who has the desire to invest time and energy in students, who has the desire to teach well, and who has the patience to deal with students. Some people keep that desire for 30 years; some don’t. But tenure and union wages make sure that even the ones who have lost it will keep their jobs at the expense at younger and more motivated people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-or-state-budget-cuts-wheres-the-difficulty-in-deciding-what-to-cut/570771.md?page=5)