# Federal Transit Administration, go choke on a cock and die **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 25, 2008, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940 "2008-01-25T10:49:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/41 "2008-01-27T03:51:29Z")
[QUOTE=InLucemEdita] Could you be more specific about what I wrote that was wrong? You aren’t suggesting that California roads shouldn’t be considered public transportation (the point I made) because they don’t receive public funding…are you? Do you really think no federal, state, or local tax dollars go for road transportation in California? [/QUOTE] At least on a State level, the drivers of CA pay more in than they get. ---
**Author:** ![InLucemEdita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7ab992/32.png) [@InLucemEdita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InLucemEdita)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/42 "2008-01-27T03:56:28Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] At least on a State level, the drivers of CA pay more in than they get. [/QUOTE] Doubt it. But even assuming it is accurate, why does that make me wrong? I stated that public funds (derived from property, sales, and income taxes) are used to build roads, bridges, do maintenance etc. and therefore roads are public transportation. Unless this is not true, please retract the “Wrong.” that you shat upon my post. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/43 "2008-01-27T04:02:59Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] At least on a State level, the drivers of CA pay more in than they get. [/QUOTE] How much do they pay and how much do they get? ---
**Author:** ![InLucemEdita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7ab992/32.png) [@InLucemEdita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InLucemEdita)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/44 "2008-01-27T04:13:49Z")
A few choice quotes from the California Legislative Analyst’s Office…California’s Non-partisan fiscal and policy advisor: Local Transportation Revenues Depend Heavily on Optional Sales Tax Optional Local Sales Taxes Contribute a Large Share of Transportation Revenues Most State Transportation Expenditures Are for Highways > **[ca\_travels\_012607.pdf](https://lao.ca.gov/2007/ca_travels/ca_travels_012607.pdf)** > > 1714.33 KB If the drivers are paying the total cost of California’s roads (and they do pay a lot through state and federal mandated gas tax) why are there additional local sales taxes, general fund expenditures, federal contributions, and bond initiatives to cover road projects? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/45 "2008-01-27T05:08:18Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] How much do they pay and how much do they get? [/QUOTE] They had to pass a special bill to stop them from looting highway funds for General fund spending. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/46 "2008-01-27T05:17:12Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] They had to pass a special bill to stop them from looting highway funds for General fund spending. [/QUOTE] Do automobile owners pay 100% of the “highway funds”? Do these “highway funds” pay for construction and maintenance of _all_ automobile-related infrastructure (including residential roads, freeways, tunnels, bridges, etc.) and still have money left over to be “looted”? ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/47 "2008-01-27T06:25:25Z")
Dear catsix, please don’t use any airports. You may find the planes and the infrastructure that support them are subsidised by the feds. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/48 "2008-01-27T14:13:04Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] In a lot of places, unfortunately. I avoid it like the plague now. [/QUOTE] Aw, come on. Humor me. ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/49 "2008-01-27T14:51:37Z")
[QUOTE=Neidhart] This area needs rapid transit to Dulles. Has needed it since 1963. [/QUOTE] Me? I need sleep. I read this as: _This area needs rapist transit to Dulles. Has needed it since 1963…_ :smack: My first thought was – Damn, wish I weren’t on strike, this would make an awesome throwaway line for \… Elly, sleep deprived scribe on strike. :o ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/50 "2008-01-28T14:01:18Z")
The problem I have with a commuter train is the incredible start-up/running costs. Think of all the social problems you could solve in the DC area with **5 billion**! Do you think building a \*fixed route \* train is the best use of public transportation funds? I’m not against using some Fed tax money for funding public transportation but you have to draw the line somewhere…shouldn’t we be funding air travel otherwise? And a light rail or commuter train isn’t the way to tackle this problem. Use just a fraction of that money and you could build 100 electric/hybrid buses that could be used for the same thing. And then, if needed, the same buses could be used in other parts of the city for other reasons (like on weekends/nights to get people to and from special events). And then, guess what, the same frigging route that the buses use can also be used by other vehicles - you can’t drive cars or emergency vehicles on train tracks. This idea sucks for various reasons and I can’t believe there are people out there that are still trying to sucker the public into such a boondoggle. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/51 "2008-01-28T15:22:47Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] And then, guess what, the same frigging route that the buses use can also be used by other vehicles - you can’t drive cars or emergency vehicles on train tracks. [/QUOTE] It’s also harder for a train to hit a car than a bus (Not saying you’re wrong, just flashing back to a rapid transit bus that got into an accident on it’s first day of service.) ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/52 "2008-01-28T15:34:16Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] The problem I have with a commuter train is the incredible start-up/running costs. Think of all the social problems you could solve in the DC area with **5 billion**! Do you think building a \*fixed route \* train is the best use of public transportation funds? I’m not against using some Fed tax money for funding public transportation but you have to draw the line somewhere…shouldn’t we be funding air travel otherwise? And a light rail or commuter train isn’t the way to tackle this problem. Use just a fraction of that money and you could build 100 electric/hybrid buses that could be used for the same thing. And then, if needed, the same buses could be used in other parts of the city for other reasons (like on weekends/nights to get people to and from special events). And then, guess what, the same frigging route that the buses use can also be used by other vehicles - you can’t drive cars or emergency vehicles on train tracks. This idea sucks for various reasons and I can’t believe there are people out there that are still trying to sucker the public into such a boondoggle. [/QUOTE] While you are making a lot of sense, the problem here is that the roadways are choked. Adding buses isn’t going to help without one of two things - more roads, or significantly more HOV requirements. It seems every time they build more roads, or widen them, the traffic just expands to make them as crowded as before. As for more HOV, we already have large amounts of that. I live close enough in so I am not affected, but I don’t know how much more of it is actually feasible here. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/53 "2008-01-28T15:55:01Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] Think of all the social problems you could solve in the DC area with **5 billion**! [/quote] Should we have solved all “social problems” before building our transportation infrastructure? Like airports, freeways, bridges, etc.? > [@](#): > > Do you think building a \*fixed route \* train is the best use of public transportation funds? Yes. If the roads are already congested, then buses will be just as slow as cars. Trains can be faster, more reliable (punctual) and have higher capacity than buses. > [@](#): > > …shouldn’t we be funding air travel otherwise? Are you planning to commute by air? How is one a substitute for the other? Besides, we already _do_ fund air travel. > [@](#): > > Use just a fraction of that money and you could build 100 electric/hybrid buses that could be used for the same thing. And those buses would be just as slow as cars. Slower, in fact. Unless they run on dedicated _and physically separated_ bus lanes - but then, it still won’t scale up to higher passenger volume as well as trains do. Of course buses make sense for low traffic routes, and for getting passengers to and from train stations. But you can’t expect it to serve inter-urban routes with the speed anywhere close to that of commuter rail. > [@](#): > > And then, if needed, the same buses could be used in other parts of the city for other reasons (like on weekends/nights to get people to and from special events). And then, guess what, the same frigging route that the buses use can also be used by other vehicles - you can’t drive cars or emergency vehicles on train tracks. Nobody is proposing to replace all buses with trains. In fact, the more trains you have, the more buses you’d need to get people to/from train stations. As for emergency vehicles - the more people use public transit, the more room there will be on the road for emergency vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/54 "2008-01-28T16:31:21Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] Think of all the social problems you could solve in the DC area with **5 billion**! [/quote] I bet that had the powers that be in Minnesota saw a bill for fixing the I-35 bridge before its collapse, they would have said, “$100 million! Think about all the other problems we could fix with that money.” Then the thing collapsed. What’s my point? That underfunded transportation systems – whether roads, bridges, tunnels, public transit, or airports – are a social problem. > [@catsix](#): > > And every time I go to DC, I drive, because nothing beats my car. If you like the bus or the train, that’s fine. Use it. Just don’t stick your hand in my pocket to pay for the bus and the train. Actually, your driving in DC already sticks your hand in my pocket. My income and sales taxes are paying for you (an legion of commuters from Maryland and Virginia) to use DC roads. Not that I have any problem with that, because Virginia taxpayers paid for the roads that I use when I go to Target in Alexandria, or whatever. But you consistently ignore the main practical point: if there had been no Federal subsidies for mass transit, I’m betting that most transit systems either wouldn’t exist (especially those with high price tags, like the Metro system here) or would be greatly reduced in scope. That would mean more cars on the road, higher demand on gasoline with higher prices, more spending needed to maintain stressed roads, more air pollution, and much more traffic. I say again, Metro handles something like three-quarters of a million passengers every day. I have no problem with you driving when you come to DC (here’s to you falling prey to all our vicious meter maids and thereby making my life more affordable), but you benefit an enormous amount by avoiding the aggravation of having hundreds of thousands more cars on the road jamming things up when you’re trying to get somewhere. I’ll never understand this attitude that so long as someone pays their taxes and drives in their own car, some people think that they are an island, immune from any responsibility for the effects of how much they use their car, untouched by how anyone else chooses to run their life. If you want to drive your car everywhere, I have no moral problem with it, drive as much as you like and can afford. But you create pollution and traffic, just as people who take the bus or a subway reduce congestion and make things better for drivers. I don’t see why people have a hard time admitting that. (FTR: I drive to work every day and thank god that most people in my neighborhood can take the Metro. Just so happens that it is really not convenient for where I live and where I work.) ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/55 "2008-01-28T17:12:33Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] I bet that had the powers that be in Minnesota saw a bill for fixing the I-35 bridge before its collapse, they would have said, “$100 million! Think about all the other problems we could fix with that money.” Then the thing collapsed. What’s my point? That underfunded transportation systems – whether roads, bridges, tunnels, public transit, or airports – are a social problem. [/QUOTE] Repairing a problem to an existing infrastructure isn’t even close to what’s being discussed here. They want to spend 5 billion to put in a rail line that will be limited in it’s usefulness and I can almost guarantee will be underused in terms of capacity. These things never get the ridership that the developers anticipate which then makes the thing an even bigger waste of money. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/56 "2008-01-28T17:16:28Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] They want to spend 5 billion to put in a rail line that will be limited in it’s usefulness… [/QUOTE] Everything is “limited in it’s [sic] usefulness” in some way. What are the limitations of the specific railway line in question? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/57 "2008-01-28T17:17:30Z")
**catsix’s** objections to subsidies are understandable. It’s not as if she’s a computer/software engineer, an industry that receives billions in subsidies to keep the American semiconductor fabrication market viable (taking just a single case of subsidies that industry enjoys), in the face of SE Asian competition, as in, for example, the approximately $1.2 billion series of subsidies New York state recently gave AMD in order to build a fabrication facility there. Nor are there literally thousands of instances of government subsidies and grants, dating back to at least Turing, littering the history of computer science/engineering as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/58 "2008-01-28T18:02:50Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] Everything is “limited in it’s [sic] usefulness” in some way. What are the limitations of the specific railway line in question? [/QUOTE] Well, for one, it has to stay on the tracks. Can’t re-route the train at any time for any reason. 5 billion seems like a reasonable amount of money to spend on something like this to you? 500 million would seem like a large amount to me and this is \*\*10 \*\*times that. Plus, from the link in the OP > [@](#): > > Simpson’s letter raised issues that go to the core of the project. They include its cost, which has ballooned over years of planning; the ability of the airports authority to manage such a large transit construction project when it has never done so; and the ability of Metro to absorb the extension into an existing system that is underfunded and needs repairs. This project will not go smoothly. I would have guessed that if it did go through that the final costs could have easily doubled to 10 Billion. No funded project like this ever goes through under budget. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/59 "2008-01-28T18:20:29Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] Well, for one, it has to stay on the tracks. Can’t re-route the train at any time for any reason. [/quote] Ah. Unlike highways and bridges, which can be dismantled and moved elsewhere? > [@](#): > > 5 billion seems like a reasonable amount of money to spend on something like this to you? I don’t know the details of this particular project, but yes, I think $5 billion is a reasonable amount of money to spend on a major metropolitan commuter rail. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940/60 "2008-01-28T18:56:50Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] I’m still furious at whomever decided that it would be a good idea to build a major airport purportedly to serve Washington, DC, in an area that, to me, is basically the eastern stretches of West Virginia. I swear to God, Baltimore’s airport is more convenient. And I don’t have to fight traffic to get there _thanks to the fact that the Federal government several generations ago decided to subsidize the laying of railroad tracks from DC to Baltimore (and all across the country) for the benefit of commerce and mankind._ As someone who has to use Dulles quite frequently, fuck that airport and everyone involved in making it continue to be so horribly difficult to get to and get around in via the “mobile lounges.” Fuck you all with an oleo strut. [/QUOTE] Thank you. I say this every time I have to drive to that hellhole. Sucks to get there, sucks to get in and around and the stupid “mobile lounges” add one final suck just before the suckiness that is flying on a plane. I’m not convinced that a rail line into hell will make hell easier to deal with, but this would seem to be a perfect place for mass transit. Duh, you arrive via mass transit … wouldn’t it be nice to be able to go home via mass transit without having to pay a cab over $40. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/federal-transit-administration-go-choke-on-a-cock-and-die/434940.md?page=4)