# Feds 'black-bagging people' in Portland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638 "2020-07-18T03:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/223 "2020-07-19T21:16:23Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Thanks. – if I ever saw that one, I seem to have managed to forget it. I wish I could. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/224 "2020-07-19T21:42:10Z")
No source or cite satisfy the folks here who ask for them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/225 "2020-07-19T21:45:49Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > No source or cite satisfy the folks here who ask for them. That’s certainly an excuse to never back up your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/226 "2020-07-19T22:06:30Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It certainly seems this way, but we’ve been moving quietly in this direction for a long time. Americans have been brainwashed into believing that we need a security state. I don’t mean to sound like a raging conspiracy theorist, but I really do believe that there are people within the bureaucratic labyrinth (aka ‘deep state’) who have careers and income based on the existence of the security state, and look for problems to solve. Only now, we have an administration that gladly weaponizes them. Absolutely. I agree. > [@RaftPeople](#): > > And expecting the police to have stuff thrown and fired at them and to just allow that to happen is also bizarre. And yet… that is what civilians are supposed to put up with, being tear gassed and beaten and kidnapped when they are exercising their right to speak and protest. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/227 "2020-07-19T23:26:32Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Martinis? – that reads like a quote, but Thurber and martinis is what comes up when I google it, and that quote isn’t quite right. Something I picked up from my boss years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/228 "2020-07-19T23:43:19Z")
Getting back to the subject . . . Re: The idea that local or state police should arrest the federal goons: As noted, any attempt to confront them on-the-scene in real-time is going to become an even bigger clusterfuck than it already is. But how about having the local and state police treat it like an abduction? They have photos of the perps. Attempt to identify them. Attempt to find where they live (or, if they are imported goons, where they are staying). Then have the local or state police go to where they are, quietly and low-profile, perhaps late in the evening or early morning, and arrest them there. Send the local SWAT team, get them in their pajamas with their guns elsewhere, and round them up that way. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/229 "2020-07-19T23:50:18Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Then have the local or state police go to where they are, quietly and low-profile, perhaps late in the evening or early morning, and arrest them there. Which is most likely a federal building. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/230 "2020-07-19T23:50:40Z")
interesting. Because the overwhelming majority of cites provided here across all forums and topics I find reliably factual and informative. Maybe you’re just not doing it right? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/231 "2020-07-20T00:53:07Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > … > > Then have the local or state police go to where they are, quietly and low-profile, perhaps late in the evening or early morning, and arrest them there. Send the local SWAT team, get them in their pajamas with their guns elsewhere, and round them up that way. They dont live locally for the most part, and honestly, what they are doing isnt blatantly illegal. However, there is this: [https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/oregon-attorney-general-files-lawsuit-against-federal-agencies-for-violating-oregonians-civil-rights/283-1ab1070e-3510-46f6-8987-8982f939117c?fbclid=IwAR0YpnE\_e0XzDgiUB2Lv\_ILg4\_wG8iSrUU\_EjVfhPynBG\_u0Sv5U7zUnUkU](https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/oregon-attorney-general-files-lawsuit-against-federal-agencies-for-violating-oregonians-civil-rights/283-1ab1070e-3510-46f6-8987-8982f939117c?fbclid=IwAR0YpnE_e0XzDgiUB2Lv_ILg4_wG8iSrUU_EjVfhPynBG_u0Sv5U7zUnUkU) That’s the way to do it, and the ACLU is preparing something also. This also will give Biden a good excuse to be Barr behind bars. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/232 "2020-07-20T02:46:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Local police cant do that. The Constitution clearly gives Feds supremacy. Per The National Constitution Center, The Federal Supremacy Clause applies only when State Law conflicts with Federal Law, _then_ Federal Law is supreme. It is not that Federal Law _always_ trumps State Law. An important distinction. Pretty sure Oregon supports peaceful assembly and address of grievance, so there no conflict with Federal Law. Yes, Feds can protect Federal Property, but Federal Property is quite limited in Portland. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/233 "2020-07-20T02:48:46Z")
According to NPR, DHS wants to take this program nationwide. Just to get something clear, because it’s fuzzy to me from the posts on this thread: do we know if anyone has actually “disappeared,” even if the feds claimed they were freed and went missing afterward? Or can most, if not all, people arrested at least be located? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/234 "2020-07-20T02:55:13Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > According to NPR, DHS wants to take this program nationwide. > > **Just to get something clear, because it’s fuzzy to me from the posts on this thread: do we know if anyone has actually “disappeared** ,” even if the feds claimed they were freed and went missing afterward? Or can most, if not all, people arrested at least be located? - It sends a very clear message that anyone can be disappeared at any time with no recourse. This is intended to keep people from protesting at all. Same reason for the use of tear gas, impact munitions and batons when the situation does not call for such use. If anything, it creates a chaotic situation as people fight to get clear. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/235 "2020-07-20T03:22:09Z")
It’s a good point that just showing they _can_ is message enough. That still makes me curious about the realities of the current situation. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/236 "2020-07-20T04:19:56Z")
Not **so far** , in fact, most were questioned then released. Apparently if you say the magic words “I want my attorney” they are letting you go. But **so far.** This does not bode well. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/237 "2020-07-20T06:04:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And if it is 99% peaceful, 1% violent? > > 99.9% peaceful? > > If you have a thousand people protesting, it only takes one to make it “violent”. > > There are two ways of dealing with that. Either you do not allow protests, or you acknowledge that that 1 individual is not representative of the rest of the protest. I have friends and kids that are peaceful protesters (in Seattle), and when I see the violence on tv I can see that it’s not the majority, that’s why I guessed at 5% (which might be high, maybe it’s 1%, or it might be low, it might be 10%, not really sure). It’s certainly a tricky situation when there are two distinct types of people mixed in the group, the peaceful and the violent. I don’t know what the optimal way is to handle the situation, but I know that just letting the police get attacked and allowing the city to get destroyed is not something I will ever think is ok. Here’s a question for you: What if a right wing white group of protesters was marching through a predominantly black area and a small percentage were destroying businesses, would you want the police to stand down? I would be against that activity regardless of color of protester and color of business owner, I would want the police to put a stop to it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/238 "2020-07-20T06:41:42Z")
What if a large group of armed and angry white protesters marched into government buildings? What would you have happen to them? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/239 "2020-07-20T07:21:53Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > It’s certainly a tricky situation when there are two distinct types of people mixed in the group, the peaceful and the violent. …it isn’t really a tricky situation at all. Its a matter of scale. Its a matter of proportionality, its a matter of basic training. There are thousands of videos of the police and of federal agencies casually beating people at the protests, casually aiming and shooting people with pepper balls, casually throwing tear gas into the middle of the street, casually throwing people off bikes, with almost zero accountability. **The police and the federal agencies are rioting**. The police unions support the police riots. Government agencies support the riots. Mayors and Governors condone and support the police riots. [Patrick Skinner](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/2/21277438/police-officer-george-floyd-patrick-skinner-interview-militarization), a former counter-terrorism ops guy for the CIA and now policeman said this today: > [@Skinner](#): > > Long past time to have a discussion about getting rid of polcie unions. I say this as a life-long supporter of unions. They built the middle class. But police unions are different. The needs of the community outweigh the needs of the police since life and liberty are at stake. > > Put it this way. The right of the community to be free from government misconduct, abuse, violence, or indifference by those who swore an oath to serve their community outweighs the collective bargaining rights of those who took that oath. We must be accountable to our neighbors > > **And again, we the police don’t tell our neighbors how we will police them. THEY TELL US**. It is by & only by their consent that we do our job. My neighbors are not just the point of me being a local cop. My neighbors are the only way I can be a local cop > > > CBS Chicago @cbschicago Its time to stop pretending the police are “responding to violence.” People have been protesting for 53 days. I think its time for you to maybe think what it is they are protesting about. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/240 "2020-07-20T12:48:32Z")
Okay. FFS, Why? > **[A Navy veteran says he was beaten and pepper sprayed by authorities while...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/20/us/portland-protester-navy-veteran-beaten/index.html)** > > Protests in Portland, Oregon have been a nightly occurrence for more than 50 days, but one man hadn't attended any until Saturday night. The LEOs that beat this guy… have they no conscience or sense of shame? Is there no commanding officer on the scene to ensure his troops don’t abuse their power and authority? Is there not ONE among them who has the sense that what they are doing is fundamentally morally wrong? What distinguishes these “cops” from junta thugs and fascists at this point? Every law enforcement agency (municipal, state, federal) present is either denying responsibility or not responding to questions. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/241 "2020-07-20T13:00:10Z")
This is what happens when we endorse the militarization of police forces, whether they’re federal or local law enforcement. The problems with law enforcement go beyond just race, although that’s certainly a central issue. But there’s a persistent problem of culture that has turned law enforcement officers into street warriors. We’ve seen this since the War on Drugs, and it’s been amplified during the War on Terror, both of which are really just wars on American citizens. We need to end both “wars,” because both of these are just wars on ordinary people, and some extraordinary people as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/242 "2020-07-20T13:00:37Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Here’s a question for you: > What if a right wing white group of protesters was marching through a predominantly black area and a small percentage were destroying businesses, would you want the police to stand down? I’d want them to focus on the people destroying businesses, not the people who were protesting while leaving the vandals alone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=13)