# Feds 'black-bagging people' in Portland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638 "2020-07-18T03:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/243 "2020-07-20T13:05:59Z")
We all can agree that police shouldn’t just sit and watch “protesters” burn buildings to the ground, but they need to change their tactics. They have all the technology in the world to put people under surveillance. Surely they can use some of that to observe and isolate people who are causing the problems. It’s interesting how law enforcement has the patience to wait for weeks or even months on end as angry white ranchers who are armed to the teeth barricade themselves in federal buildings or on some remote ranch, but they have no patience for people who are throwing around a few water bottles or spray painting a statue. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/244 "2020-07-20T14:08:27Z")
> **[President Obama Signs Indefinite Detention Bill Into Law | American Civil...](https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-bill-law)** Interesting article, “President Obama’s action today is a blight on his legacy because he will forever be known as the president who signed indefinite detention without charge or trial into law,” said Anthony D. Romero, ACLU executive director. “The statute is particularly dangerous because it has no temporal or geographic limitations, and can be used by this and future presidents to militarily detain people captured far from any battlefield. The ACLU will fight worldwide detention authority wherever we can, be it in court, in Congress, or internationally.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/245 "2020-07-20T14:39:28Z")
Here is the clarification to what NDAA is and how it has been used under the Obama Administration: > **[Cutting through the Controversy about Indefinite Detention and the NDAA](https://www.propublica.org/article/cutting-through-the-controversy-about-indefinite-detention-and-the-ndaa)** > > As Congress prepares to send it to President Obama, a guide to the controversial defense spending bill’s provisions about detention and the laws of war. > **Who can be detained?** > > [Anyone](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/528524-ndaa-2012.html#document/p265/a83463) who “planned, authorized, committed, or aided” the 9/11 attacks, or “harbored those responsible.” Also, anyone who been “part of or substantially supported” Al Qaeda, the Taliban, “or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the U.S. and its coalition partners.” ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/246 "2020-07-20T14:41:53Z")
> [@shh1313](#): > > Interesting article, > > “President Obama’s action today is a blight on his legacy because he will forever be known as the president who signed indefinite detention without charge or trial into law,” said Anthony D. Romero, ACLU executive director. “The statute is particularly dangerous because it has no temporal or geographic limitations, and can be used by this and future presidents to militarily detain people captured far from any battlefield. The ACLU will fight worldwide detention authority wherever we can, be it in court, in Congress, or internationally.” Finally. Something Obama did that Trump is in agreement with. Talk about a dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/247 "2020-07-20T14:46:11Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Finally. Something Obama did that Trump is in agreement with. For this to be true, those detained in Portland would have to be credibly suspected of being part of the 9/11 attacks. I suspect @shh1313 misunderstood the NDAA and/or will clarify upon return to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/248 "2020-07-20T15:17:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > For this to be true, those detained in Portland would have to be credibly suspected of being part of the 9/11 attacks. Reread Quicksilver’s post (#237). ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/249 "2020-07-20T15:36:25Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I’d want them to focus on the people destroying businesses, not the people who were protesting while leaving the vandals alone. If the violent protesters are somewhat separate from the peaceful (e.g. violent on the sidewalk breaking windows, peaceful people in the street) then yes that would seem to be the best approach. If the violent people are mixed in with the peaceful protesters, throwing objects and shooting fireworks then it becomes more challenging, not sure the optimal approach. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/250 "2020-07-20T15:53:19Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > This is what happens when we endorse the militarization of police forces, whether they’re federal or local law enforcement. The problems with law enforcement go beyond just race, although that’s certainly a central issue. But there’s a persistent problem of culture that has turned law enforcement officers into street warriors. We’ve seen this since the War on Drugs, and it’s been amplified during the War on Terror, both of which are really just wars on American citizens. We need to end both “wars,” because both of these are just wars on ordinary people, and some extraordinary people as well. This is a topic I’ve looked into at various times over the years, reading up on researchers and people that work with police departments to understand what they think needs to change. Despite being a person that believes the police are necessary and that most police, like most of anyone in any walk of life, are good people, I could see what seems to be a massive over-reaction to some situations. One of the researchers (can’t remember the name) felt the issue was driven by a philosophy that no policeman should ever be injured or die (something like that), which she said is a much more extreme position than the military, the military expects casualties. Because the police are (understandably) hyper-ramped up to protect themselves, it leads to over-reactions. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/251 "2020-07-20T16:16:00Z")
Good post, and I actually agree with the general thrust of what you wrote. Yes, I do think a lot of what I refer to as the militarization of police is driven a lot by the idea that all police officers have a right to a safe working environment and should return home alive. Don’t get me wrong – I want officers to return home to their families, and I don’t know anyone who doesn’t (other than their adversaries on the streets). But as I’ve posted before, “I was afraid,” cannot be the bar. Officers first have to accept that their job is dangerous, and potentially life-threatening. It’s no different than people who repair mobile phone towers or build wind turbines. Mistakes and bad luck can result in death. They accept that the day they sign on. Obviously, we have to do what we can to ensure that they can operate in an environment where there is as much safety as possible, but not at the expense of basic human rights. Police need to rely less on big guns and more on risk assessment and finding ways to deescalate a situation first before trying to run roughshod over people. Having said that, this is a criminal justice problem, and not just a problem of law enforcement. Criminal justice can determine where police officers should focus their energies and resources in the first place. We also really, really need to get firearms off the street. If there’s anything we can do in terms of giving police tactical advantages, rather than building up the armaments that police departments possess, we might be better off reducing the production and flow of firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/252 "2020-07-20T16:28:28Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Because the overwhelming majority of cites provided here across all forums and topics I find reliably factual and informative. Maybe you’re just not doing it right? Maybe everything he has comes from far-right sources and can be traced back to [RT.com](http://RT.com). ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/253 "2020-07-20T16:42:21Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > We all can agree that police shouldn’t just sit and watch “protesters” burn buildings to the ground, but they need to change their tactics. They have all the technology in the world to put people under surveillance. Surely they can use some of that to observe and isolate people who are causing the problems. Technically, government employees (including the Police, no matter what their oath says) [have no duty to protect](https://www.barneslawllp.com/blog/police-not-required-protect) anyone. The can, if they feel so inclined, but their primary job is to catch the bad guys. Why, exactly, they are being used for “riot control” is difficult to justify. Marching in the streets is protected by the Constitution, which supersedes local code related to event permits. The protesters are not breaking the law, even if they are running afoul of local ordinances. Inconveniencing other people is annoying, but so is constitutionally-protected bullshit-spewing being perpetrated by certain unspecified news media. The police should be seeking to identify and apprehend individuals who are causing mayhem. That is their job. Condoning and herding the protesters is not their job and they absolutely should not be involved in doing that, even if the protesters are hurting their feelings. In fact, I am not convinced that they have a right to respond to having things thrown at them: if it is likely to cause injury, and the uniform is the target, they need to hunker down or depart the scene, but retaliation is simply not appropriate. > [@asahi](#): > > It’s interesting how law enforcement has the patience to wait for weeks or even months on end as angry white ranchers who are armed to the teeth barricade themselves in federal buildings or on some remote ranch, but they have no patience for people who are throwing around a few water bottles or spray painting a statue. The evidence suggests that, in general, LEOs avoid situations that put themselves in peril. When they do not clearly have the upper hand, they tend to back off and, sometimes call for backup. Most of them seem to be strutting cowards, who do not send officers after the window smashers or torch throwers, because those people might be dangerous, and it is much easier to lob tear gas at people who are not much of a threat. In the case of Malheur, the Feds were standing back not so much because of fear of crazy people with guns (though that was a factor) but to give the occupiers an opportunity to self-immolate. The government did not want the bad publicity that rounding them up roughly would generate. It was strategic restraint. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/254 "2020-07-20T16:52:31Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Marching in the streets is protected by the Constitution, which supersedes local code related to event permits. The protesters are not breaking the law, even if they are running afoul of local ordinances. Inconveniencing other people is annoying, but so is constitutionally-protected bullshit-spewing being perpetrated by certain unspecified news media. Marching in the streets is protected, but: “You don’t need a permit to march in the streets or on sidewalks, **as long as marchers don’t obstruct car or pedestrian traffic.** ” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/255 "2020-07-20T16:54:06Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > “You don’t need a permit to march in the streets or on sidewalks, **as long as marchers don’t obstruct car or pedestrian traffic** ” Where is that quote from? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/256 "2020-07-20T17:13:48Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > It’s certainly a tricky situation when there are two distinct types of people mixed in the group, the peaceful and the violent. I don’t know what the optimal way is to handle the situation, but I know that just letting the police get attacked and allowing the city to get destroyed is not something I will ever think is ok. Perhaps there isn’t an easy answer, but it has been a fundamental tenet of our legal system that the rights of the innocent are more important than apprehension of the criminal. And that means as much as it may pain you to watch it on the news from the comfort of your home, the 95% of people exercising their right to protest freely is at its core more important and more American than punishing the 5% of people who are doing what you believe is “destroying the city” (so, how long until these folks raze Portland to the ground? Or are you maybe engaging in hyperbole to justify your emotional response?). ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/257 "2020-07-20T17:15:57Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > (so, how long until these folks raise Portland to the ground? - Raze. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/258 "2020-07-20T17:17:04Z")
Drat! Thanks! I know that, honest! Working from home in no AC has my brain all melty. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/259 "2020-07-20T17:28:36Z")
The police Unions have **nothing whatsoever** to do with the Fed Agents in Portland. First- Fed agents dont belong to police unions. Next, what they are doing is ordered by Barr. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/260 "2020-07-20T17:36:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where is that quote from? From the ACLU website (I try to get info from the least likely to be “spun” source, I really dislike incorrect info). > **[Know Your Rights | Protesters’ Rights | ACLU](https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/protesters-rights)** > > The First Amendment protects your right to assemble and express your views through protest. However, police and other government officials are allowed to place certain narrow restrictions on the exercise of speech rights. Make sure you’re prepared by... ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/261 "2020-07-20T17:38:09Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Looting, arson, racially motivated attacks and suppression of individual rights, vandalism, robbery, and murder in these urban areas are not peaceful protests. Well, then, tell the cops to **stop doing them!!** ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/262 "2020-07-20T19:41:52Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > The LEOs that beat this guy… have they no conscience or sense of shame? Is there no commanding officer on the scene to ensure his troops don’t abuse their power and authority? Is there not ONE among them who has the sense that what they are doing is fundamentally morally wrong? > > What distinguishes these “cops” from junta thugs and fascists at this point? Nothing. They ARE thugs at this point, and fascists. Anyone who could see the wrong in this has been purged from the ranks, or was never hired to that agency in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=14)