# Feds 'black-bagging people' in Portland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638 "2020-07-18T03:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/483 "2020-07-22T23:47:34Z")
You have less than no idea of what you’re talking about. Does it tickle a lot when you pull that much nonsense straight out of your cloaca? Is it on a roll up there or just all wadded up in a bunch? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/484 "2020-07-22T23:47:45Z")
The strange thing is the jackboots aren’t arresting the looters, they’re brutalizing the protestors. In case you didn’t notice, those are two different groups. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/485 "2020-07-22T23:48:46Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > So, it seems like your question to me is essentially: why is it ok to use “riot control agents” on unarmed civilians? No, that is not my question. My question is very simple: Why is it legal to use on unarmed civilians a substance that is _banned in warfare?_ If it’s too horrible for war it should be too horrible for peacetime, civilians, and the unarmed. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/486 "2020-07-22T23:51:59Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Broomstick’s argument against it based on the fact that it’s banned from war was not a valid argument because the reason they banned it from war is it’s too difficult for observers to determine if the gas is a toxic chemical or merely a riot control agent. Gaseous riot control agents ARE toxic chemicals. That is how they work. If they were unpleasent and irritating there would be no point. The fact they are not immediately and not as reliably fatal as, say chlorine or mustard gas or sarin is a matter of degree, not a substantial difference. We live in a world where it is illegal to use mace or pepper spray on the battle field but totally OK to use on unarmed civilian protesters. That’s just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/487 "2020-07-22T23:53:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Now look, I’m not a fan of that form of arrest. It strikes me as wrong. But I’m not surprised that with as much unrest and destruction that the left has engaged in that won’t ever be prosecuted or even arrested for by local leader that the Federal government is taking over the role. So the kinds of arrests we’re seeing strike you as wrong. But not so wrong that they you can’t look the other way when it’s happening indiscriminately to protesters on the left. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/488 "2020-07-22T23:57:48Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Just an additional point on this: > Did you know that mace and tear gas are essentially the same thing? Lots of people carry mace (legally) to protect themselves from dangerous situations. Yes. And those substances are also banned in some jurisdictions and illegal to carry or use in those places. > [@running\_coach](#): > > And they’re not allowed to use it just because someone is annoying them. ^ This. Using them without justification (basically, self-defense when you feel _physically_ threatened) leave the owner open to legal action, both criminal (it would be a form of assault) and civil. I’ll also point out that the quantities permitted to civilians are far, far smaller than the big cans of that shit being used in Portland. I’ve seen fire extinguishers smaller than those canisters. > [@running\_coach](#): > > The strange thing is the jackboots aren’t arresting the looters, they’re brutalizing the protestors. In case you didn’t notice, those are two different groups. The camoshirts don’t give a damn about the looters and crime, they are there to suppress political dissent and freedom of speech. Anyone who doesn’t agree with The Leader is the enemy and is to be beaten into submission and silenced. Or gassed into submission and silence. Or simply kidnapped and crammed into an unmarked van so they can’t be seen or heard. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/489 "2020-07-23T00:10:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The protests are dishonest and hypocritical at this point. …which particular protest are you talking about? The ones in Portland? How are they " dishonest?" And why do you think they are “hypocritical?” > [@octopus](#): > > Illiberal, violent, racist are now synonymous with the radical left. When I think “violent” and “protests” I think of [this](https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1284489680956923904). Or [this](https://globalnews.ca/video/7035439/george-floyd-protests-video-shows-denver-police-firing-pepper-balls-at-car-allegedly-containing-pregnant-woman). Or [this](https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/07/portland-protests-man-shown-absorbing-police-baton-blows-in-viral-video-says-he-just-wanted-to-talk-to-federal-officers.html). Or [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gprIBmd_9go). Here is a [thread](https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1266751520055459847) with over 800 documented incidents involving police violence against protestors. All on video. The violence over the last 60 days is almost entirely synonymous with the actions of the police and the federal agencies. In comparison the DHS justification for their continued presence on the streets in response to the protests is [pathetic](https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/16/acting-secretary-wolf-condemns-rampant-long-lasting-violence-portland). Graffiti. Animal seed. > [@octopus](#): > > Unfortunately the radical left and their enablers make up too much of academia and mass media. If the “radical left” actually “made up too much” of the “mass media” then the protests wouldn’t have dropped off the radar weeks ago. The mass media are much too easily distracted to be part of the “radical left.” ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/490 "2020-07-23T00:17:41Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Maybe no one can answer this… but at what point does an individual human being inside a camo uniform, face shield, and helmet, armed with a big, ol’ scary battlefield weapon say to himself (are there any women in those stormtrooper getups?), _“This is just wrong! My superiors have ordered me to take actions that I know are wrong. I can’t and won’t do it anymore. If I get fired, I’ll do something else, but my conscience won’t allow me to continue this unethical crowd control.”_ It can go pretty far. > **[Milgram Shock Experiment: Summary, Results, & Ethics](https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html)** > > Stanley Milgram, a psychologist at Yale University, carried out one of the most famous studies of obedience in psychology. If you factor in that the people in question have been trained in the use of violence and are surrounded by people who are also following orders, it is pretty easy to convince yourself that you must be doing the right thing. After all if this was really bad everyone else would be quitting, why should I be the first one. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/491 "2020-07-23T00:20:35Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I will rephrase: > > People who do show up will be non-peaceful protestors, and can be hugged, tickled, painted purple, or otherwise appropriately treated. > > Better? No. Better would be an actual answer to what I’ve been asking you. But it’s pretty clear by now that I’m not going to get one. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/492 "2020-07-23T00:20:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > No, that is not my question. My question is very simple: > > Why is it legal to use on unarmed civilians a substance that is _banned in warfare?_ > > If it’s too horrible for war it should be too horrible for peacetime, civilians, and the unarmed. You seemed to have missed this point: It wasn’t banned from warfare because it’s too horrible. It was banned from warfare because observers can’t tell if a gas is a “toxic chemical”, or if it’s a “riot control agent” and it leaves open the door for states to claim that the “toxic chemical” they just released was really just a “riot control agent”. That is why the Chemical Weapon Convention of 1993 left it as ok to use on humans for riot control purposes. Here is the link: [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2\_cha\_chapter24\_rule75](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_cha_chapter24_rule75) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/493 "2020-07-23T00:22:22Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > [… > For the third time: are you saying that disappearing people is appropriate treatment? > > … AFAIK\< no one is being “disappeared.” The reports are of people being grabbed, questioned and released. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/494 "2020-07-23T00:24:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > AFAIK\< no one is being “disappeared.” The reports are of people being grabbed, questioned and released. No one knows where they’re taken or who took them. It’s being demonstrated that anyone _can be_ disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/495 "2020-07-23T00:26:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Gaseous riot control agents ARE toxic chemicals. Definitions: > [@](#): > > Article II(2) of the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention defines the term “ **toxic chemical** ” as: > Any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals. This includes all such chemicals, regardless of their origin or of their method of production, and regardless of whether they are produced in facilities, in munitions or elsewhere. > [@](#): > > Article II(7) of the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention defines “ **Riot Control Agent** ” as: “Any chemical not listed in a Schedule, which can produce rapidly in humans sensory irritation or disabling physical effects which disappear within a short time following termination of exposure.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/496 "2020-07-23T00:27:39Z")
Only on TV do they Mirandize people as they are being arrested. Until you are questioned, no need to Mirandize, and if they dont, then whatever you say is not evidence. She even said she refused to answer, citing her 5th ad. If she did assault a Federal agent, that is entirely appropriate. She was released the next day. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/497 "2020-07-23T00:27:45Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > If you factor in that the people in question have been trained in the use of violence and are surrounded by people who are also following orders, **it is pretty easy to convince yourself that you must be doing the right thing**. After all if this was really bad everyone else would be quitting, why should I be the first one.- My bold. You have confirmed what I said about mob mentality (by which I mean protective coloration in a group), but referring to what I bolded, is it **really** _pretty easy to convince yourself_ that this is okay? Obviously, some are convinced. Some are always convinced. But these people (the ones in camo) aren’t highly trained Army Rangers or something. They’re not an elite hit squad of some kind that’s schooled in 40 ways to kill a person with their bare hands. MOST OF THEM are ordinary guys, as I described above. _I_ could not be convinced to bludgeon ordinary citizens, and I’m guessing many here could not either. My question is NOT “what makes them go along with the crowd of thugs” – I get that. My question is what makes individual people realize that what they’re doing is wrong and to **stop**? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/498 "2020-07-23T00:27:57Z")
First of all, I’m responding to a particular post by a particular poster; and the issue isn’t whether people have actually been disappeared in Portland, but whether that poster supports doing so. Second of all, as far as I know you’re right, and I hope you’re right. But the reports are of people being forced into unmarked vehicles by armed forces with no identification, and then being driven off to locations which aren’t disclosed at the time. If one or more of the people so treated weren’t released, how would we know? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/499 "2020-07-23T00:29:58Z")
Sure, absolutely it is scary and intimidating, but everyone has been released within a day so far as i know. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/500 "2020-07-23T00:30:42Z")
You must have missed the part about _demonstrating it can be done._ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/501 "2020-07-23T00:34:22Z")
True, very scary. Of course they have cell phones with tracking devices, people see then taken off etc. One women was able to text messages. No one has been reported missing, afaik. It is something that _could_ very well be abused- it doesnt seem to be **SO FAR**. The Oregon AG, the ACLU and others have filed suit- let us hope that works before it gets out of hand- as it certainly could. I think Barr has ordered the agents to do nothing that is a blatant violation or abuse- just things that are slightly “over the line”. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/502 "2020-07-23T00:38:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I think Barr has ordered the agents to do nothing that is a blatant violation or abuse- just things that are slightly “over the line”. And how many times is acceptable that the line moved “just a little bit farther”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=26)