# Feds 'black-bagging people' in Portland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638 "2020-07-18T03:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/503 "2020-07-23T00:44:28Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > People who do show up will be non-peaceful protestors, and can be shot, thoroughly gassed, disappeared, or otherwise appropriately treated. > [@SCAdian](#): > > People who do show up will be non-peaceful protestors, and can be hugged, tickled, painted purple, or otherwise appropriately treated. Equally serious. And the one thing they have in common is “appropriately treated”. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/504 "2020-07-23T00:46:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Until you are questioned, no need to Mirandize, and if they dont, then whatever you say is not evidence. She even said she refused to answer, But she was questioned. The fact that she knew she didn’t have to answer doesn’t mean that they weren’t supposed to Mirandize before questioning. > [@DrDeth](#): > > If she did assault a Federal agent, that is entirely appropriate. She was released the next day. If they have actual evidence that she did assault a Federal agent, or for that matter another protestor or a random passerby, how is it appropriate to release her without charges? If they have no evidence that she assaulted anyone (FWIW she denies it), how was it appropriate to jail her overnight and for most of the next day, not allow her to contact a lawyer, and steal her phone and identification? – for that matter, some of that’s inappropriate even if she did assault somebody. > [@DrDeth](#): > > absolutely it is scary and intimidating, but everyone has been released within a day so far as i know Since when is it OK to kidnap somebody and terrify them just so long as you let them go within a day afterwards? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/505 "2020-07-23T00:46:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Only on TV do they Mirandize people as they are being arrested. Until you are questioned, no need to Mirandize, and if they dont, then whatever you say is not evidence. She even said she refused to answer, citing her 5th ad. They attempted to question her without reading her rights. That is a problem. > [@](#): > > If she did assault a Federal agent, that is entirely appropriate. She was released the next day. She didn’t assault a Federal agent. That is a problem. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/506 "2020-07-23T00:48:33Z")
Yeah, me too! I also have my laminated copy of The Gay Agenda! Autographed! ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/507 "2020-07-23T00:49:00Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Equally serious. And the one thing they have in common is “appropriately treated” So are you now saying that you were “only joking”? And that when it became clear that multiple people in the thread were taking you seriously, instead of answering “whoosh” or something of the sort you decided it was funny to keep up the joke? Or am I not going to get a clear answer to that one either? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/508 "2020-07-23T00:49:23Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > My question is NOT “what makes them go along with the crowd of thugs” – I get that. My question is what makes individual people realize that what they’re doing is wrong and to **stop**? I don’t know that we are starting with a baseline person in the first place. We are talking about someone who looked up to authoritarian power enough to join a job to enforce it. Then was selected to go join in this particular enforcement. These agents are steeped in authoritarianism and a power trip. Those in question started with a desire to do what we would think of as wrong and even abhorrent, and they only need to be given permission to go even further. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/509 "2020-07-23T00:50:51Z")
They are grabbed without probable cause, questioned without knowing what crime they are accused of, and apparently they are released with no record that they were questioned. No documentation, no oversight. No no no. We’re not supposed to play that way. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/510 "2020-07-23T00:51:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Only on TV do they Mirandize people as they are being arrested. Until you are questioned, no need to Mirandize, and if they dont, then whatever you say is not evidence. She even said she refused to answer, citing her 5th ad. > > If she did assault a Federal agent, that is entirely appropriate. She was released the next day. No. You don’t have to be read your rights if they are not interrogating you, but she said that they asked her about the incident, at which point she asserted her 5th Amendment rights. She’s a lawyer, and had the wherewithal to stand up for herself. Police are not supposed to interrogate without first providing Miranda rights. Any evidence that they would have gathered would have been suppressed _as a sanction_ for not having provided that advice of rights. It was not appropriate. And I don’t know what the legal status of not identifying what law enforcement agency is, but that needs to be clarified quickly. If it is not already required, it should be. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/511 "2020-07-23T01:04:45Z")
Hey kids, ever wonder what those riot rounds those kulaks are so fond of do to the human body? [Well, wonder no more](https://i.redd.it/jycra2w2ffc51.jpg)! _Warning, it’s kinda gross_ And our new police chief [doesn’t think it’s legal for reporters to record cops doing their thing](https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1286034101267390464). _Spoiler alert, it’s totally legal for anyone to record cops!_ Nice to know the Good Squad hasn’t forgotten [Job#1 of casual racism](https://i.redd.it/q7m27yqdfhc51.jpg) while they’re also harassing and hurting protesters. Now the head of DHS, Chad Dickwolf, is proud to announce they’re “[proactively arresting protesters.](https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-chad-wolf-proactive-homeland-security-20200722-66sn2apavnc2tfbzi3anwctzee-story.html)” Anybody care to label that for what it is? _Spoiler alert–“thoughtcrime” is a pretty good start on this game._ But hey, no fascism here, amirite? ETA: Somebody saying we should stop protesting and let the courts handle it? Haha, [the attorneys are joining the protests](https://i.redd.it/e9v0oa1v9gc51.jpg)! ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/512 "2020-07-23T01:06:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t know that we are starting with a baseline person in the first place. > > We are talking about someone who looked up to authoritarian power enough to join a job to enforce it. Then was selected to go join in this particular enforcement. These agents are steeped in authoritarianism and a power trip. > > Those in question started with a desire to do what we would think of as wrong and even abhorrent, and they only need to be given permission to go even further. Sure you’re not saying that ALL police fall into this category. Don’t you know any police personally? Or do you just mean this particular collection of people functioning as police? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/513 "2020-07-23T01:10:57Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Hey kids, ever wonder what those riot rounds those kulaks are so fond of do to the human body? [Well, wonder no more](https://i.redd.it/jycra2w2ffc51.jpg)! _Warning, it’s kinda gross_ Here’s another. He was shot from across the street for holding up a speaker. So damn threatening. > **[Donavan La Bella making ‘remarkable’ recovery from head injury after being...](https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/07/donavan-la-bella-making-remarkable-recovery-from-head-injury-after-being-shot-by-feds-sister-says.html)** > > La Bella, 26, is being treated at Legacy Emanuel Medical Center, where his sister, Stephanie Thornton, said Sunday that her brother has made remarkable improvement given the extent of his injuries. She said her brother gets “really bad headaches” but... ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/514 "2020-07-23T01:11:41Z")
I’m saying that there were several levels of selection pressures that made sure that the most authoritarian are in the roles that are currently deployed into the streets. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/515 "2020-07-23T01:21:36Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > So are you now saying that you were “only joking”? And that when it became clear that multiple people in the thread were taking you seriously, instead of answering “whoosh” or something of the sort you decided it was funny to keep up the joke? > > Or am I not going to get a clear answer to that one either? What part of “appropriately treated” do you not understand? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/516 "2020-07-23T01:24:24Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > So are you now saying that you were “only joking”? And that when it became clear that multiple people in the thread were taking you seriously, instead of answering “whoosh” or something of the sort you decided it was funny to keep up the joke? > > Or am I not going to get a clear answer to that one either? > [@SCAdian](#): > > What part of “appropriately treated” do you not understand? Nope; I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/517 "2020-07-23T01:27:33Z")
Your post about China was a poor attempt to provide reference to what Trump is doing now here in this country. As I said in my reply, unlike the United States, China has never even pretended to care about democracy or human rights - at no time in its several millennia of cultural history. That’s not to suggest we should ignore its abuses, but why would you bring that into a discussion in which people are worried about the degradation of human rights and democracy here, in a society that was literally founded on these principles (albeit not perfectly of course)? Even if we’re not at the death camps stage or never get there, so what? Any look at history would remind you that what Trump and the GOP are doing now is destabilizing for democracy. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/518 "2020-07-23T01:47:04Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > And our new police chief [doesn’t think it’s legal for reporters to record cops doing their thing](https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1286034101267390464). _Spoiler alert, it’s totally legal for anyone to record cops!_ The public absolutely has the right to record the police (reporters don’t really have any special rights in this area), but the public (including reporters) are required to follow legal orders from the police, like dispersal orders. So, if a dispersal order was given then the reporter (and everyone else) would need to be dispersing while they are videoing. If they don’t then they can be arrested (whether a reporter or not). Here’s a link about this stuf: > **[FAQ: What Are the Rights of Reporters Covering Protests?](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/faq-what-are-rights-reporters-covering-protests/)** > > Reporting on protests is no easy job—just ask the thirty-six reporters arrested while covering the Occupy movement. Do reporters have a right to gather the news? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/519 "2020-07-23T01:55:22Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Newest development–the moms have been joined by [dads with leaf blowers](https://truthout.org/articles/portlands-wall-of-moms-joined-by-dads-with-leaf-blowers-against-trumps-police/) who blow the teargas back at the feds. Say what you will, Portland knows how to protest with _style_. > **Yoga, anyone?** > > ['Naked Athena' protester confronts Portland police | Daily Mail Online](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8540579/Naked-Athena-protester-confronts-Portland-police.html) Warning: do not attempt this – they will still shoot at you with pepperballs. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/520 "2020-07-23T02:08:32Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Yeah, me too! I also have my laminated copy of The Gay Agenda! > > Autographed! :: checks my copy of the Gay Agenda :: …hey! My copy of the Gay Agenda wasn’t laminated! I’m starting to think that maybe something is up here! ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/521 "2020-07-23T02:13:22Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > The public absolutely has the right to record the police (reporters don’t really have any special rights in this area), but the public (including reporters) are required to follow legal orders from the police, like dispersal orders. > > So, if a dispersal order was given then the reporter (and everyone else) would need to be dispersing while they are videoing. If they don’t then they can be arrested (whether a reporter or not). > > Here’s a link about this stuf: And [here’s another link](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/07/federal-judge-issues-14-day-order-exempting-journalists-with-press-passes-legal-observers-from-police-orders-to-disperse-during-unlawful-assemblies-riots.html) that’s specific to Portland. The feds argue it doesn’t apply to them, which might be true from a legal standpoint. But it worked fine for local police, so it’s tough to justify why the feds can’t handle being recorded. > Journalists with professional or authorized press passes and legal observers will be exempt from Portland police orders requiring protesters to disperse during declared unlawful assemblies or riots under a 14-day order issued late Thursday by a federal judge. > > Police also cannot arrest, threaten to arrest or use force against a person “who they know or reasonably should know” is a journalist or legal observer. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/522 "2020-07-23T02:15:00Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Police also cannot arrest, threaten to arrest or use force against a person “ **who they know or reasonably should know”** is a journalist or legal observer. Now that’s a loophole you can drive an armored vehicle through. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=27)