# Feds 'black-bagging people' in Portland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638 "2020-07-18T03:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/623 "2020-07-23T19:43:54Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I am questioning if some of the orders being given are lawful. I suspect they are not. Even when 100% within the law, it’s reasonable to question their intent and effect. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/624 "2020-07-23T19:44:53Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > That is simplistic and incorrect. > > I’ve been a supporter of solving problems with policing, but the “defund” movement completely loses me. The term is either being used correctly by the person (those that want to abolish) and I 100% disagree with that. Or the term is being used completely incorrectly, which is just plain dumb. Point one: you are one person. If everyone had been in favor of BLM reforms all along, we’d long ago have had them. Obviously significant numbers of people weren’t in favor of them. Point two: you’re saying that you’re not going to support changes that you genuinely think are needed because people are phrasing one item in a way that you don’t like? I don’t see how that attitude goes along with any depth of commitment to the reforms you’re saying you favor. > [@octopus](#): > > Protesting police violence with arson, looting, racial and politically motivated assaults, and vandalism isn’t peaceful. Nor is it speech. Protesting police violence with groups of people coming out into the streets chanting and holding signs is peaceful; and it is speech. And that is what nearly all the people at the protests are doing. I looked at a number of different news sources last night and I noted that some of them don’t mention that. Maybe you should expand what you’re reading/watching. I agree with you about the racial and politically motivated assaults. So do the protestors. This behavior on the part of the police forces is exactly what they’re upset about. – SmartAleq: you got me there. I’d better go get something else done for a while, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/625 "2020-07-23T19:46:05Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Protesting police violence with arson, looting, racial and politically motivated assaults, and vandalism isn’t peaceful. Nor is it speech. There isn’t looting here. Pretty much the only assaults, racially motivated or otherwise, are being committed by police and paramilitary goons. Why did you feel the need to include things that aren’t happening in your list? Are you concerned that if you left it with vandalism and starting small fires on the sidewalk, that people might start to question if the fed response is necessary? You’re scared of a boogie man. It isn’t real. The things you are scared of are make believe. Open your door, see the world for real a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/626 "2020-07-23T20:04:37Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > but the “defund” movement completely loses me. The term is either being used correctly by the person (those that want to abolish) and I 100% disagree with that. Which tells me that you were looking for an excuse to object to protests against police brutality. If it were really just that some people were using some words in a way you don’t like, then it wouldn’t have lost you, much less “completely”. If you were interested in solving problems with policing, then you would have sought to understand the term, rather than lash out at something that you really don’t want to understand. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/627 "2020-07-23T20:05:37Z")
Agreed. So why are the jackbooted thugs going after the peaceful protesters, rather than the arsonists, the looters, the vandals, or the assailants? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/628 "2020-07-23T20:12:24Z")
Oh look, Chad Dickwolf outright admits he knows that what they’re doing there is unconstitutional. Quelle surprise, y’all. Rest of the article is a nice little takedown of just how many ways they’re violating people’s rights. > **[Two DHS Officials Apparently Just Admitted Their Troops Have Been Violating...](https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analysis/two-dhs-officials-apparently-just-admitted-their-troops-have-been-violating-the-constitution/)** > > Acting DHS Secretary Chad Wolf and one of his subordinates recently admitted their agents have been making unconstitutional arrests of Black Lives Matter protesters in Portland. ---
**Author:** ![bobsmom101](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobsmom101/32/2867_2.png) [@bobsmom101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobsmom101)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/629 "2020-07-23T20:41:13Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Tear gas is about as peaceful as you can get on **peaceful** protestors, it usually gets them to leave without altercation. PEACEFUL protesters are so threatening that the government has to tear gas them? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/630 "2020-07-23T20:42:17Z")
Peaceful protest has always been terrifying to the government. As they should be. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/631 "2020-07-23T20:49:30Z")
[Breaking News:](https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/23/politics/justice-department-inspector-general-portland-washington/index.html) > The Justice Department’s independent watchdog agency said Thursday that it will investigate the [use of force](http://www.cnn.com/2020/07/23/us/portland-protests-mayor/index.html) by federal law enforcement officers in Portland, Oregon, and Washington, DC. > > Independent Justice Dept. watchdog agency to Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz said in a statement that his review of the law enforcement forces would include an examination of the instructions they received and their compliance with policies regarding proper identification as well as use of chemical agents. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/632 "2020-07-23T20:51:31Z")
In no way, shape or form is tear gas peaceful. None. No, I would rather they didn’t lay hands or weapons on them at all. None at all. How about like with like? The police/government agents can wave posters and chant slogans as much and long as they want? Seems not only fair but proportionate. Fair and proportionate. Let me show you how the police in my city do it. This was at a BLM demonstration. Notice the BLM protest signs. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhZ0aGIHTxE) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/633 "2020-07-23T21:04:09Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > [Breaking News:](https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/23/politics/justice-department-inspector-general-portland-washington/index.html) > > > Independent Justice Dept. watchdog agency to Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz … I thought the Drumphsterfire fired all of the Inspectors General… ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/634 "2020-07-23T21:10:39Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Point two: you’re saying that you’re not going to support changes that you genuinely think are needed because people are phrasing one item in a way that you don’t like? I don’t see how that attitude goes along with any depth of commitment to the reforms you’re saying you favor. I didn’t say I wouldn’t support changes, I do support the changes. I did before the protests, I continue to despite some protesters destroying things and despite some with misleading communication. But I don’t need to engage in communications with people that use misleading phrases, whether those people are on the right, the left, or in between. I prefer facts and real problem solving, not spin. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/635 "2020-07-23T21:16:51Z")
How many people have been shown to have been “black-bagged”? I haven’t been following this too closely, and was under the impression that it was quite a few. Is that the case? Snopes weighed in on the story: > **[Were Portland Protesters 'Kidnapped' by Federal Officers in Unmarked Vans?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/feds-unmarked-vans-portland/)** > > The claim surfaced as U.S. President Donald Trump prepared to deploy federal law enforcement agents in Chicago and other cities. They conclude that Trump did send in agents, and “rate this claim a “Mixture” of truth, falsehood and unproven information — yes, the president ordered federal officers to Portland during protests in summer 2020, and at least some of those agents used unmarked vehicles, though no verifiable evidence showed they “kidnapped” people under the legal definition of the term, nor that they did not identify themselves as law enforcement during the apprehensions.” They also make no mention of large numbers of people supposedly being detained in this way, so I am just curious as to what the claims are from others. How many people have definitively been shown to have been “abducted”, for lack of a better term? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/636 "2020-07-23T21:17:58Z")
Ok, but even the ACLU says "defund the police’ is a bad slogan and is pushing “Divest and re-invest” instead. So, pretty much-defund the police _is_ a bad slogan. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/637 "2020-07-23T21:18:33Z")
“Defund the police” isn’t spin - it’s just an incomplete picture. Way less incomplete than “pro-life”, mind you. Only 4% of police calls involve violent crime or otherwise require or justify the use of firearms. Police are usually trained like those 4% of calls are the only calls they take - so having only a hammer, everything is a nail to them. “Defund the police” means “Take 96% of the money away from the police and use it to create new organizations that we train _not_ to shoot the people they’re interacting with. Devote the remaining reduced police force to the tasks it’s actually good at.” It’s not a big scary idea. It’s really just intelligent allocation of resources. But if you’re a republican spinmaster or fascist, then it’s easy to _paint_ it as a big scary idea. But they’d paint it that way whatever it was called because they’re lying pieces of shit, so trying to come up with unspinnable slogans seems like a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/638 "2020-07-23T21:21:35Z")
Good cite, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/639 "2020-07-23T21:22:10Z")
[quote=“k9bfriender, post:626, topic:915638”] Which tells me that you were looking for an excuse to object to protests against police brutality.[/quote] How could I have been looking for an excuse if the thing you accuse me of isn’t accurate. Why not just ask me where I stand instead of accusing me of something I didn’t do and isn’t what I believe? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/640 "2020-07-23T21:23:32Z")
He fired the IG’s for the DoT, DoD, HHS, State Dept., and intelligence. I suspect Horowitz may be on the chopping block next, depending on his findings. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/641 "2020-07-23T21:28:27Z")
Well, I disagree, as I think it says exactly what needs to happen. But I do agree that it is too easy to take it the wrong way, and use it as a wedge as it has been used. If the ACLU wants to use “Divest and Re-invest” that’s fine. I’m sure changing the slogan will make all the reform that is needed to happen happen. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/642 "2020-07-23T21:30:52Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > but the “defund” movement completely loses me. I took it when you said, > [@](#): > > but the “defund” movement completely loses me. That you no longer supported the movement, due to the word that was being used to describe it. If you changed your mind when the ACLU changed the slogan, then great, happy that we were able to make you comfortable enough to continue to be against police brutality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=33)