# Feds 'black-bagging people' in Portland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638 "2020-07-18T03:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/683 "2020-07-24T01:59:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > it’s not a policy, it’s a motivating cry Again, you can argue until you are blue in the face that slogans don’t matter, but the data says that the general public is not receptive to that one while at the same time being open to the general principles and ideas behind it. Why make the job harder? Note: this is just an analysis, none of us (that I am aware of) has any real influence over whether that phrase gets used by the organizations pushing for change. So nothing will come of this debate, it’s just an analysis of whether it was a good choice or not. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/684 "2020-07-24T02:06:52Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > From the data that I’ve seen (third hand, mostly, so no cite, but I’m happy to be corrected with better data) far less than 50% of what police do is responding to actual criminal activity. If you trust Carmen Best (the SPD police chief), read her detailed analysis of impacts of a 50% cut. For example: Having two police respond to a call substantially reduces the chance of ending up with a violent interaction between the police and the public (see details from Carmen Best and from consent decree), but a 50% cut will substantially cut into the ability to have two responders. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/685 "2020-07-24T02:07:26Z")
I just did argue till I was blue in the face (metaphorically) that slogans _do_ matter. I think it was a good choice because it was what rallied tens of thousands of people all around the world to take to the streets against police brutality. I don’t think that divest and reinvest would have done that. We wouldn’t be having this conversation at all if they had chosen a more watered down and focus group tested slogan. We don’t have any influence over what phrase that thousands of people in a grass roots movement uses, no one does. However, we do have influence over how we explain those slogans to others. Like I said, if you are trying to recruit allies, I absolutely agree that you should avoid sloganeering and instead focus on the principles and ideas behind it along with policy you wish to change or implement. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/686 "2020-07-24T02:08:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > maybe this? That’s my city. I live less than a mile away from this protest. I am proud, not only of our police and sheriffs but of our citizens. Here’s another view-notice the BLM protest signs in the background. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhZ0aGIHTxE) If the federal officers want to wave counter protest signs and chant back, I’m fine with that. That would be _proportionate and appropriate._ What the feds are doing is wrong every single way it can be. I have never feared for my country as much as I do now. Ever. And I was here for desegregation of the schools, Vietnam, Watts and Ruby Ridge. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/687 "2020-07-24T02:11:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I just did argue till I was blue in the face (metaphorically) that slogans _do_ matter. Yes and no. You seem to favor a rallying cry for the people already on your side over something that will help sway the people that aren’t already committed to the ideas. My opinion is that should be reversed for maximum effectiveness. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/688 "2020-07-24T02:20:16Z")
But what all are they responding to? If there are criminals afoot, sick the police on them. If there is a welfare check, or someone needing mental help, or even domestic disputes, the police are who are sent, and the police are almost always not the right people for the job. So, send 2 out for criminal reports, but you should have less than half as many calls. The police offer only excuses, no solutions. We’ve left the problem of police brutality in the hands of the police to solve for decades. We’ve given them more money, more equipment, everything they ask for. But they haven’t managed to solve the problem of them brutalizing the citizens they are supposed to protect and serve. Maybe it is in fact time to spend that money elsewhere, in other ways, as it is pretty obvious by now that the police are not able to solve the problem on their own. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/689 "2020-07-24T02:20:52Z")
No, I’m just saying don’t take the rallying cry away from those who are rallying. ETA: and I should say, “Don’t _try_ to take the rallying cry away.” Not only should you not do it, but even if it were in the best interests of everyone, I seriously doubt you could anyway. ETAETA: It’s kinda like saying that you disagree with the tides, and that they should stop. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/690 "2020-07-24T05:48:07Z")
See now, y’all thought it was vandalism when the protesters were taking down the fed’s chainlink fence but they were just helping–the morons put it blocking a bike lane and you just don’t DO that here. Plus, feds are about to get ticketed for it–so the protesters were doing them a solid and got tear gassed for their pains. Feds are a buncha animals. > **[Portland Officials Threaten to Fine Feds for Courthouse Fence—It’s Blocking a...](https://www.wweek.com/news/city/2020/07/23/portland-city-officials-threaten-to-fine-feds-for-courthouse-fence-its-blocking-a-bike-lane/)** > > Federal officials responded to protesters Wednesday by installing a metal fence supported by concrete jersey barriers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/691 "2020-07-24T06:05:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, I’m just saying don’t take the rallying cry away from those who are rallying. > > ETA: and I should say, “Don’t _try_ to take the rallying cry away.” > > Not only should you not do it, but even if it were in the best interests of everyone, I seriously doubt you could anyway. > > ETAETA: It’s kinda like saying that you disagree with the tides, and that they should stop. Hey, that could work! Signed _King Canute_ ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/692 "2020-07-24T06:56:36Z")
You do realize that we only have access to videos about reality, not whatever you’re watching. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/693 "2020-07-24T07:18:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You must not be watching any of the live streams with the so-called peaceful protesters throwing explosives, bottles, shining powerful lasers, setting fires and wrecking the area. Freedom of speech is a constitutionally guaranteed but I can guarantee that you’d have no freedom of speech near that violent mob. > > Peaceful looting, peaceful arson, and peaceful hate crimes sort of means using peaceful or of peace as a descriptor is nothing but double speech. There’s so much of that going on, that of course the Trump campaign would never have to use images of a Ukranian riot from 2014 to demonstrate what is happening in Portland in 2020 🙄. > **[A new Trump campaign ad depicting a police officer being attacked by...](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-campaign-ad-police-officer-attacked-2014-ukraine-protests-2020-7)** > > The Trump campaign ad says "public safety vs chaos & violence" and includes an image that's not from the US protests at all. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/694 "2020-07-24T07:42:47Z")
Again, folks with personal insults. Folks who know for a fact that rioters are destroying property, using lasers to blind, assaulting people for unapproved opinions yet insist on the inaccurate euphemism of ‘peaceful protester.’ If these protesters were so peaceful why are people being shot? Why are building burned? Why are businesses looted? Why are basic freedoms shut down with violence and intimidation? Confederate flags and statues of George Washington aren’t responsible for this ridiculous lawlessness. Leftists are. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/695 "2020-07-24T07:47:06Z")
If these protesters were so peaceful why are people being having fire hoses turned on them? If these protesters were so peaceful why are people being having police dogs attack them? If these protesters were so peaceful why are people being found in the trunks of cars driven into bayous? If these protesters were so peaceful why are people being killed in church bombings? CMC ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/696 "2020-07-24T07:58:03Z")
Well, you do realize that there is a HUGE difference between actual peaceful protests of actual injustices and the cynical and opportunistic exploitation of a death? The folks in the 60s were fighting for actual freedom. The folks rioting today are illiberal and dangerous and frankly not very bright. The inaccurately named BLM movement isn’t served by looting Nike stores, burning property, and attacking people. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/697 "2020-07-24T07:58:15Z")
No, I was being serious. I have neither seen nor heard of credible evidence that anything like you describe is anywhere near widespread. These videos you speak of really do seem to only be available to you. And when your answer to “why are innocent people being shot” is “it’s the innocent people’s fault”, that shows a very large blind spot regarding who, in fact, might be responsible for the trigger being pulled. (The person who pulled it? Say it ain’t so!) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/698 "2020-07-24T08:03:27Z")
Sure you haven’t. You don’t have access to the internet, TV, or newspapers? Because even with the very biased media we have it’s hard to miss the videos, photographs, and statistics. Who occupied the portion of Seattle? You hear of that? Who burned down large portions of Minneapolis? Who caused the destruction in Baltimore and Atlanta? Who are the folks throwing bottles, explosives, using powerful lasers, and destroying public property throughout the country? Is this just imaginary? Is that what you are seriously suggesting? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/699 "2020-07-24T08:08:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > {…} there is a HUGE difference between actual peaceful protests of actual injustices {…} By definition, no police assault/shooting/killing can be an actual injustice. CMC ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/700 "2020-07-24T08:13:22Z")
Huh? You know that’s not accurate. Opinions were almost 100% that George Floyd’s death was criminal and that’s a lot more than those who believe the Earth is round, that men walked on the moon, and that the Lock Ness Monster is fake. There was real broad consensus on actual reform. But the allure of free Nikes was too strong. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/701 "2020-07-24T08:20:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > {…} the Earth is round, that men walked on the moon, and that the Lock Ness Monster {…} More evidence for all of those than there is for ‘large portions of Minneapolis burned down’ CMC ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/702 "2020-07-24T08:31:56Z")
Rather small portions of Minneapolis were burned, over the course of a couple of nights. Per the [article](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/03/us/minneapolis-government-george-floyd.html) I googled, at least three men who were not known to the protest organizers were arrested for starting fires. (Odd, that.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=36)