# Feds 'black-bagging people' in Portland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638 "2020-07-18T03:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/803 "2020-07-25T04:40:31Z")
If you read the thread, you will see I have offered my opinions, cites and facts on this subject many times. That just happens to be his little technique, “Just asking questions” . ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/804 "2020-07-25T04:43:50Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Hey, any shoe polish aficionados care to take a swing at explaining what heinously important law the man dancing with the flowers broke that justified him being grabbed by goons while his buddies fire about a hundred rounds of rubber bullets at point blank range at the rest of the group of protesters? I don’t know anything about shoe polish, but if I had to guess what explanation might be offered in court, it would probably be something vague or weak like “CBP agents had information indicating the person in the video was suspected of assaults against federal agents or destruction of federal property” or 'you can’t prove that we _didn’t_ have probable cause'. Both rationales taken from a court filing earlier this week. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/805 "2020-07-25T05:16:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If you read the thread, you will see I have offered my opinions, cites and facts on this subject many times. > > That just happens to be his little technique, “Just asking questions” I have posted in this thread 23 times-most of them weren’t questions and some were links. If I have a “technique” it is to ask questions when I want to find out something. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/806 "2020-07-25T06:31:36Z")
[Just whose police](https://medium.com/@wkc6428/the-lead-federal-agency-responding-to-protesters-in-portland-employs-thousands-of-private-db137349f8b0) are they, anyway? > [@medium.com](#): > > What has not been reported widely … the DHS unit that is coordinating the “crowd control” effort … is composed largely of contract security personnel … companies like Blackwater corporate descendant Triple Canopy as well as dozens of other private security firms. > > In fact, Federal Protective Services spends more than $1 billion a year on these contract security guards who are authorized to conduct crowd control at federal properties, such as those in Portland. And, based on available photographic and document evidence, it appears those private contractors are now part of the federal force arrayed in Portland … There are some 13,000 security guards nationwide employed by FPS via contracts with private security firms, a figure that can be expanded through existing and future contracts. > > The FPS has a long history of failing to properly vet and adequately monitor and ensure that these guards have proper training and certifications, including proper firearms training. That lack of training can pose a great risk to the safety of protesters and the law enforcers they work with alike should a situation become heated. > > As outlined in a prior story on Medium, U.S. Government Accountability Office reports published between 2009 and 2014 on the FPS security guard program have uncovered guards with felony convictions … and multiple security-guard files that were missing documentation on weapons training and security clearances, among other issues. But, hey, it costs less. Right? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/807 "2020-07-25T06:37:41Z")
"_Do you mean violent acts like showing a press pass, holding a boom box or asking a question?"_ What exactly did you “want to find out” here? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/808 "2020-07-25T06:40:27Z")
The leafblowers are creative. I’ll give them that. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/809 "2020-07-25T06:41:31Z")
I’m pretty sure he wanted to find out whether you recognized that the claim that the police are using rubber bullet and tear gas based on “violence” is complete bullshit of the highest order and that any pretense that the police are justified in their actions is so flimsy that it can’t be given credence in any honest way. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/810 "2020-07-25T06:42:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m pretty sure he wanted to find out whether you recognized that the claim that the police are using rubber bullet and tear gas based on “violence” is complete bullshit of the highest order and that any pretense that the police are justified in their actions is so flimsy that it can’t be given credence in any honest way Pretty much, yeah. I thought the purpose of those questions would have been fucking obvious to most people. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/811 "2020-07-25T08:17:10Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Dressed all in black with a respirator mask? Fuck, that’s a goddamned hipster coming home from work trying not to get tear gassed so he can get to sleep. I saw the video in question, too - no, it wasn’t a guy just on his way home trying not to get tear-gassed. It was a guy deliberately and methodically smashing windows. I wouldn’t call his mask “military”, though - it looked like one of the half-face rubber things they sell in hardware stores with pink N100 filter cartridges. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/812 "2020-07-25T10:19:46Z")
OK, let’s put this thread - give then 900 reports it’s generated - onto what my regulators would call ‘enhanced oversight’. From this point forward, everything and everyone needs to be on best behavior. If a questions asked, try to answer it. No personal cracks of any kind about another poster. Failure to comply may result in warnings, penalties, banning from thread or forum and will almost certainly get this thread shut down. I hope that’s clear. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/813 "2020-07-25T15:23:51Z")
I protested last night by the Justice Center and federal courthouse. I was interested to see first-hand what it took to bring out the gas. Turns out, it takes shaking the fence and shooting off a few fireworks. The fence is reinforced by concrete barriers, so it was not coming down no matter how much people shook it. The fireworks were not a risk. There were no officers outside at the time, and the building was heavily reinforced after the Oklahoma City bombing. The ground floor is all concrete; there’s nothing to catch on fire. But this was enough. The feds started with tear gas along the fence. In the second round, they launched it into the crowd, the canisters nearly hitting people who were just standing there. What struck me was just how ineffective it was as a tactic. Everyone backed off a bit when it was released, people would throw the canisters back at the goons, the dads would rev up the leaf blowers, and then everyone went right back to the fence once it cleared. As we’d back off, people everywhere on the perimeter were shouting “saline, saline!” holding bottles to wash out your eyes if you caught some. Several volunteer medics were also around for people who got it worse. No one scattered and went home. Whatever your opinion on the appropriateness of the response, it is undeniable that it’s an abject failure in meeting the stated goals. There were more than 4000 people still at the protest at 11:00 pm. This is compared to 100s at that time during peak protests in May, and 20-40 just a couple weeks ago. Every action the feds take just further incites the crowd. They can’t escalate this to victory. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/814 "2020-07-25T15:27:00Z")
Chaos is their goal, not order. They (Barr’s thugs) want to start and escalate fights. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/815 "2020-07-25T15:48:03Z")
Agreed. I was careful to say **stated** goals, which you and I know are a sham. But I also came away with more confidence that their goal of chaos is failing too. I think the first few nights of secret arrests scared people, but they aren’t scared anymore. We realize the ineffectiveness of their tactics, and it felt like more of a game. I have videos of tear gas wafting while the drumming circle kept playing and people danced. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/816 "2020-07-25T15:59:37Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > For example, if a lawful dispersal order was given to support safety concerns, and the crowd refused to disperse, then tear gas would seem appropriate. And if the order is not over safety concerns, but solely violation of curfew? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/817 "2020-07-25T16:02:49Z")
Apologizes, the @ thing put you in, then I changed it, but it went back. I don’t know, my bad. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/818 "2020-07-25T16:15:31Z")
The chaos is for the cameras. Trump is losing suburbanites in droves. And seeing this sort of thing may be what scares them into coming back to the MAGA side. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/819 "2020-07-25T16:48:50Z")
He is hoping to scare the suburbanites back into the fold… but it might not work because of all the other crap he’s done (or sometimes what he hasn’t done). ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/820 "2020-07-25T17:14:31Z")
It might backfire, because the yellow-shirt moms and leaf-blower dads who are getting gassed look just like those suburbanites (and probably some of them are suburbanites? I haven’t seen that addressed.) So gassing these protests may scare those suburbanites way away from Trump. Just hope it doesn’t scare them away from the polling booths in states where they manage to require in-person voting. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/821 "2020-07-25T17:18:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Trump is losing suburbanites in droves. And seeing this sort of thing may be what scares them into coming back to the MAGA side. There was a paper recently by someone that studies this type of stuff. His analysis of the 60’s was that non-violent protests in the first half of the 60’s resulted in strong public support and the passing of significant civil rights legislation. Then in the second half of the 60’s the protests became violent and it pushed enough of the public towards a law and order position that Nixon got elected instead of Humphrey (who was substantially behind the civil rights legislation). ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/822 "2020-07-25T17:22:28Z")
The Seattle local news last night had one of the protesters that recently was part of a large group of people breaking windows, starting fires etc. One of his statements was that they targeted businesses that don’t have a BLM sign in the window. I was already against destruction of property, but this is even worse, if you don’t have the right type of thought or speech, they will destroy your property. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=42)