# Feds 'black-bagging people' in Portland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638 "2020-07-18T03:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/823 "2020-07-25T17:44:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > to be fair, lasers can cause severe damage to the eyes. > > _Can_ being the operative word here. You do have to actually hit them in the eye, and it’s not instant, so you have to hold it there while they stand still. And some pretty cheap glasses will filter it out. > > I put lasers in the same category as rock throwing. Extremely minor annoyance with a slim chance of actual injury, but is used to justify disproportionate retaliation against innocent and peaceful protesters. [False](https://journal.burningman.org/2015/03/black-rock-city/tales-from-the-playa/theres-a-black-dot-in-the-middle-of-everything-i-see/). The person in the link was instantly blinded in one eye and partially blinded instantly in the other; she most certainly did not stand still while a laser was played over her. Sandmen have been issued laser goggles since the incident but they were not cheap and they are good for only one frequency of laser beam; there are several different frequencies out there. The chief danger is from cheap green lasers. The green is achieved by doubling the frequency of an IR laser which is then emitted at a lower power than the original. Expensive lasers filter out the IR, the cheap ones don’t bother, and IR is more damaging than the green. I am in no way supporting the actions of the Federal thugs, but shining a laser at them is far more threatening than a rock. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/824 "2020-07-25T17:58:35Z")
Exactly, which is why the Trump administration is trying to make the protests violent, and to blow out of proportion any examples they find of violence. He hopes that people will be fooled by this, and vote for him, even though he is the one that is instigating and creating the vast majority of the violence. He may be right, people do tend to be easily fooled, and do tend to retreat into authoritarianism when they are afraid or confused. > [@RaftPeople](#): > > The Seattle local news last night had one of the protesters that recently was part of a large group of people breaking windows, starting fires etc. > > One of his statements was that they targeted businesses that don’t have a BLM sign in the window. > > I was already against destruction of property, but this is even worse, if you don’t have the right type of thought or speech, they will destroy your property. Be interested in seeing this interview, any chance you can link it? Was he a protest leader, or just some guy? Did he specifically say that they were destroying property that didn’t have the right type of thought of speech, or did he say that they simple avoided damaging property of supporters? How many windows did they actually break? How many businesses did they burn down? Context and nuance are very important here. Paraphrases could completely change the meaning of something into the opposite of what was actually said. Random people talking to the press are not always aware of the overall situation, even if the press makes it sound as though the random person they got to do an interview is in charge of everything. The way you phrased it sounds like there was an organized effort to burn out anyone who didn’t have the right type of thought or speech, and that very well may be the case, but without actual context, it is rather hard to say. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/825 "2020-07-25T18:18:36Z")
Portland _is_ backfiring but Trump is too invested to back down now. Chances are he’s losing everyone who doesn’t pay attention to Fox News and/or OANN. > **[The Battle of Portland: Trump's escalating tactics against protesters are...](https://news.yahoo.com/the-battle-of-portland-trumps-escalating-tactics-against-protestors-are-backfiring-in-oregon-200349636.html)** > > A report from night 50 of the Black Lives Matter protests that have rocked Portland and focused national attention on the Trump administration’s efforts to suppress protests that sometimes carry a violent edge. > **[Polling Shows Trump's Secret Police in Portland—and GOP Lawmaker...](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/07/24/polling-shows-trumps-secret-police-portland-and-gop-lawmaker-complicity-could-have)** > > MoveOn says voters are "fed up" with GOP senators from the battleground states of Arizona, Maine, and North Carolina "carrying water for him as he trundles toward authoritarianism." Former Seattle Chief of Police to the _Washington Post_, regarding Portland: “I believe it’s safe to say it has backfired.” > **[Violent protest clashes turned Portland into a ‘right-wing boogeyman.’ Here’s...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/21/portland-feds-protests/)** > > Experts and local activists say Trump’s claims are the latest in a sustained efforts by conservative commentators and politicians to marry the myth of Antifa terrorists to a city where discontent has grown for years over increasingly harsh police... ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/826 "2020-07-25T18:26:25Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > There was a paper recently by someone that studies this type of stuff. His analysis of the 60’s was that non-violent protests in the first half of the 60’s resulted in strong public support and the passing of significant civil rights legislation. Then in the second half of the 60’s the protests became violent and it pushed enough of the public towards a law and order position that Nixon got elected instead of Humphrey (who was substantially behind the civil rights legislation). I noted this argument before, IMHO it misses that it is not 1968 again, one has to look at what happened in 1992: Bush senior and the Republicans then did try to equate the Democrats (and others that pointed at the LA riots to be the result of years of neglect of poor areas in the USA and lack of police reform) with the violent rioters. The republicans failed to convince many then that the violence they saw on tape and the insane acquittal of the police that almost killed Rodney King then was hunky dory. Now the Republicans are trying harder to convince people now that all protesters of police brutality have no reason to protest or that they are all violent rioters. So far it is clear, by looking at the polls, that trying to equate grandmothers and veterans protesting against the federals with violent rioters and criminals is not working. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/827 "2020-07-25T19:01:24Z")
🤨 My first line was that they can cause severe damage to the eyes. Categorically responding with “False” seems a bit odd. The only place that the article uses the word “instant” is in the line " life was instantaneously and irreversibly changed, ", which is a bit of artistic licences, not meant to be taken literally. I’m not sure how you know for certain that she didn’t stand still as she was standing there on guard duty. [A paper published in the journal _Ophthalmology_ in 1997 demonstrated retinal damage with continuous exposure to light from a laser pointer in as little as 10 seconds. In practice it would be difficult to damage the eye because the eye makes lots of tiny eye movements causing it to be almost impossible to achieve 10 seconds of continuous exposure. No cases of permanent damage from laser pointers labeled type II or IIIA have been reported in the literature. Recently, a paper was published in the _New England Journal of Medicine_ demonstrating permanent vision loss in a 15 year-old in Switzerland who ordered a laser off the internet. The laser was not regulated and had a power output of 150 milliwatts, which is 30 times more powerful than laser pointers sold in the United States. The boy was using the laser to burn holes in paper and to pop balloons. The boy shined the laser in his eye and suffered permanent, moderate vision loss.]([Can Laser Pointers Hurt Your Eyes? - Patty Vision Centers - Eyecare of Residents of Burlington, Roxboro, and Yanceyville, NC](http://www.pattyvisioncenters.com/2016/03/14/can-laser-pointers-hurt-your-eyes/#:~:text=Theoretically%2C%20that%20is%20enough%20power,as%20little%20as%2010%20seconds.)) So a 150mw was only enough to cause moderate loss of eyesight from close range. [But the thermal damage could also cause a permanent blank spot, he said, which is impossible to treat and would require retina replacement, he said. That type of damage is very rare, however, and Bressler said that he had mainly seen it in people who’ve been in industrial accidents.](https://www.livescience.com/21707-lasers-eye-damage.html) Just saying, as I said, which you contradicted with your categorical decree of “False”, lasers can cause severe eye damage. However, it is not instant, and it can be easily blocked. The real danger is from blue or violet lasers, as they are not perceived to be bright enough to make you automatically flinch away. Green and red tend to be “safer”. I do rate them at the same level of nuisance and annoyance as rocks. Yes, they can cause real injury, but only if someone is really unlucky. And once again, the proper response to such a thing would be leave the area, not start firing into the crowd. And I absolutely guarantee you that the “less lethal” crowd control munitions and tactics that they are using are orders of magnitude more dangerous than a laser pointer. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/828 "2020-07-25T19:21:08Z")
So you think she stood there for several seconds with a laser shining in her eyes? You’re a fool. You can cite all your papers you like. Empirically, they’re dangerous, and no “automatic flinch” can save you from a surprisingly low-powered laser damaging your eyes, especially at the distances Ms Hoversten was at, about the same as the cops would be facing. As a consequence of the incident, hand lasers were banned from Burning Man and vehicle-mounted lasers are inspected that their mountings are well above eye level and can depress them no closer to the horizon than 5-degrees. Even if lasers _were_ safe as houses, you know the Federal thugs would use them as an excuse for another riot. Stick to throwing rocks. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/829 "2020-07-25T19:32:36Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > So you think she stood there for several seconds with a laser shining in her eyes? You’re a fool. I see nothing in the article indicating otherwise. She was standing on guard duty, as she said, looking in one direction. As has been pointed out, not all lasers cause you to flinch, which _would_ have saved her eyes. As well as filtered glasses. The papers that I cited were in fact empirical evidence. You can dismiss them if you like, but it is you ignoring evidence, not I. Yeah, they were banned. One person got hurt due to to the idiocy of another, which is a time honored reason as to why we can’t have nice things. I have not said that they were not dangerous. In fact, the very first line of the post that you objected to was me pointing out that they were dangerous. I’m just saying that, just as the poster that I was responding to was downplaying the dangers of lasers, you are over hyping them. The feds will use anything as an excuse for another riot. Sticking to rocks won’t keep them from assaulting the peaceful protesters. Personally, I don’t think that anyone should be committing any violence against anyone, whether it be lasers or rocks from the protester side, or tear gas or rubber bullets from the LEO. But I’m not going to exaggerate the dangers of the protester’s actions, as that only justifies the violent retaliation by the cops. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/830 "2020-07-25T19:44:50Z")
Yes, I have said that this is a power grab by Barr and trump, that they sent in their brownshirts. Now certainly sometimes you need to use those things, but clearly the Feds sent in have overused them to a great extent. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/831 "2020-07-25T19:45:12Z")
never mind ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/832 "2020-07-25T20:07:10Z")
The ACLU is hard at work, protecting our rights: _# A Constitutional Crisis in Portland_ _We’re taking the Trump administration to court to block the unconstitutional actions of federal agents in Portland, Oregon._ > **[A Constitutional Crisis in Portland | News & Commentary | American Civil...](https://www.aclu.org/news/criminal-law-reform/a-constitutional-crisis-in-portland?initms_aff=nat&initms_chan=soc&utm_medium=soc&initms=200724_protestrights_blog_fb&utm_source=fb&utm_campaign=protestrights&utm_content=200724_criminallaw_blog&ms_aff=nat&ms_chan=soc&ms=200724_protestrights_blog_fb&utm_term=pm-6194642238195-6200055193395&fbclid=IwAR20bqOL_hfPS8-2PGBq11z8AWFIhLa2WNWm3HgP2niJvvIKVC723vcqNgE)** > > We're taking the Trump administration to court to block the unconstitutional actions of federal agents in Portland, Oregon. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/833 "2020-07-25T20:17:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Was he a protest leader, or just some guy? Did he specifically say that they were destroying property that didn’t have the right type of thought of speech, or did he say that they simple avoided damaging property of supporters? How many windows did they actually break? How many businesses did they burn down? > > Context and nuance are very important here. Paraphrases could completely change the meaning of something into the opposite of what was actually said. Random people talking to the press are not always aware of the overall situation, even if the press makes it sound as though the random person they got to do an interview is in charge of everything. It was on either King5 or Kiro7 news I’m pretty sure, it played multiple times last night, they listed his name as “twitch”. He was pretty clear, with statements like “it was surgical”, and something (I don’t remember the wording) about only hitting businesses that did not have BLM signs in the window. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Did he specifically say that they were destroying property that didn’t have the right type of thought of speech, or did he say that they simple avoided damaging property of supporters? Is there a difference? If you spare the ones that agree with you, and you target the ones that either don’t agree or haven’t indicated whether they agree with you or not, isn’t that destroying your property if you don’t have the right type of thought or speech? I find it pretty hard to defend that type of thing. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/834 "2020-07-25T20:24:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I noted this argument before, IMHO it misses that it is not 1968 again The point is merely an analysis of which tactics increase or decrease the support of much of the general public. For the question of local police and protests, I think his paper is relevant. For the question of federal agents taking action in local jurisdictions, I think it’s a different issue for many people and I don’t think his paper is as relevant. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/835 "2020-07-25T20:33:21Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > It was on either King5 or Kiro7 news I’m pretty sure, it played multiple times last night, they listed his name as “twitch”. > > He was pretty clear, with statements like “it was surgical”, and something (I don’t remember the wording) about only hitting businesses that did not have BLM signs in the window. I looked about for a “twitch” and it’s not that I didn’t find one… Anyway, I will have to take your word for it that he was an authorized spokesperson for the group and that he was completely aware of the operational details of their mission. > [@RaftPeople](#): > > Is there a difference? If you spare the ones that agree with you, and you target the ones that either don’t agree or haven’t indicated whether they agree with you or not, isn’t that destroying your property if you don’t have the right type of thought or speech? I’d say so. Now, if what you are saying is that every business that didn’t have BLM friendly signage was torched to the ground. You’d have a point. But that’s not what happened, what happened was that people were randomly breaking some windows, and skipped the ones that had a BLM sign. Now, I will disagree with the breaking windows part, that’s vandalism and should be not be condoned, but it is simple human nature that you would not want to hurt someone who supports you. That doesn’t even make any sense as a criticism. Your assertion was that if you don’t have the right type of thought or speech, they will destroy your property. All you have managed to bring to back that is a third hand story was that there was a random group of vandals who didn’t want to hurt supporters of their cause. Those are two different statements, completely different contexts. Are you willing to reassert your position that they will destroy your property for not having the right type of thought or speech? If so, please bring something, anything, at all to back that up. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/836 "2020-07-25T20:37:58Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > The point is merely an analysis of which tactics increase or decrease the support of much of the general public. Like I said. > [@RaftPeople](#): > > For the question of local police and protests, I think his paper is relevant. Yep. Just saying, and I’m still saying that referring to what will have an effect in the next election makes it relevant as it is less likely that a different president would be doing this abuse of power. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/837 "2020-07-25T20:56:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’d say so. Now, if what you are saying is that every business that didn’t have BLM friendly signage was torched to the ground. You’d have a point. But that’s not what happened, what happened was that people were randomly breaking some windows, and skipped the ones that had a BLM sign. > > Now, I will disagree with the breaking windows part, that’s vandalism and should be not be condoned, but it is simple human nature that you would not want to hurt someone who supports you. That doesn’t even make any sense as a criticism. They weren’t randomly breaking windows according to the person they interviewed on tv, they targeted the businesses that did not have BLM signs. As I quoted, he said it was (and this is a quote) “it was surgical” in their choice of businesses. I understand you can’t see the video because it doesn’t look like they’ve made it available (I searched through both sites videos and they’ve posted most of the ones prior to and right after that one, but not that one). > [@k9bfriender](#): > > All you have managed to bring to back that is a third hand story was that there was a random group of vandals who didn’t want to hurt supporters of their cause. This is a news report of the original incident: > **[Police: Roving band breaks into Seattle businesses, setting fires, looting](https://katu.com/news/local/police-protesters-start-fire-at-capitol-hill-business)** > > A destructive, roving band of people broke into several Seattle businesses Wednesday night and set fire to merchandise in some of the stores, police said. The group of about 150 people first gathered at Cal Anderson Park at about 9 p. m. , then... What does it mean when you say it was a “random group of vandals”? I’m trying to understand what point you are making when you characterize it that way. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/838 "2020-07-25T20:58:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yep. Just saying, and I’m still saying that referring to what will have an effect in the next election makes it relevant as it is less likely that a different president would be doing this abuse of power. The point is that violent protests could push some percentage of the moderates over to a law and order position resulting in Trump getting re-elected. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/839 "2020-07-25T21:00:29Z")
You really did miss that I pointed out that polls have not moved in favor of Trump? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/840 "2020-07-25T21:19:40Z")
@k9bfriender, what if the large group of people were targeting businesses that DID have BLM signs in the window? (And one of their people went on the news stating exactly that, so it was clear, not just speculation). I am strongly opposed to both situations, as well as any other that has a person or group targeted because of what they think or say or don’t say. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/841 "2020-07-25T21:48:45Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I understand you can’t see the video because it doesn’t look like they’ve made it available (I searched through both sites videos and they’ve posted most of the ones prior to and right after that one, but not that one). That’s kind of odd. Why are they not posting that one if they posted the others? I was going to ask if you can find a transcript, but if they’ve pulled the whole thing, there probably isn’t a transcript available either. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/842 "2020-07-25T21:57:50Z")
Haha, “Tear Gas Ted” Wheeler, mayor of Portland, has finally seen the light about how much it sucks. > **[Mayor Wheeler Condemns Feds' "Indiscriminate" Use of Tear Gas, Despite...](https://www.portlandmercury.com/news/2020/07/23/28668234/mayor-wheeler-condemns-feds-indiscriminate-use-of-tear-gas-despite-portland-police-using-identical-tactics)** > > After being repeatedly tear gassed Wednesday by federal police, Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler is in agreement with protesters: Law enforcement’s response to nightly demonstrations is disproportionately violent. “The tear gas… it’s indiscriminate,”... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=43)