# Feds 'black-bagging people' in Portland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638 "2020-07-18T03:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/883 "2020-07-26T12:40:51Z")
> **[Opinion | Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now,...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/23/portlands-protests-were-supposed-be-about-black-lives-now-theyre-white-spectacle/)** > > The activism of Naked Athena and the Wall of Moms might ease the consciences of white women, but it does little to advance Black Lives Matter — and plays right into President's Trump's unconstitutional plan. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/884 "2020-07-26T13:02:31Z")
Because I read a bunch of news reports and then posted, I didn’t have the articles I read still open. I typically Google Seattle protest and click news, it’seems in there, if I run across it again I will link to it. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/885 "2020-07-26T13:15:09Z")
Seattle’s protest yesterday was organized by a group called youth liberation front. They’ve also been active in Portland protests. If black goal is to reform police, then these are probably not the people to be joining in protests. They believe in abolishing police, anti-capitalism, and that they should not be peaceful, they think it requires violence. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/886 "2020-07-26T13:17:15Z")
Note: my tablet swapped blm with black in the phrase that has the word goal ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/887 "2020-07-26T13:25:48Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Seattle’s protest yesterday was organized by a group called youth liberation front. …can you provide a cite for this? Specifically that the protest was only organized by the Youth Liberation Front, that they believe in abolishing the police (I’ve done a cursory search and this doesn’t appear to be a stated goal), and that they believe protest require violence? ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/888 "2020-07-26T13:41:49Z")
I hope someone is keeping track of which city has the most umbrellas and leaf blowers. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/889 "2020-07-26T14:09:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The papers that I cited were in fact empirical evidence. You can dismiss them if you like, but it is you ignoring evidence, not I. Well, that she was injured is irrefutable; this was not a “moderate” injury. Perhaps she _did_ stand there like a deer in the headlights for ten seconds. Perhaps the handheld laser was more than 150-mw. Perhaps Saturn was in Ares rising. In any event, it is you who is ignoring your own citation. The final line in the Live Science article: > **Pass it on:** Lasers damage the eye by heating up the retina, and can cause permanent damage. (bolding in the article) I am done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/890 "2020-07-26T14:21:53Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Just who do you suppose is keeping a tally? I don’t think the feds are. Who else would be? If my suspicions are correct, no one is keeping a tally, because there is nothing to tally up. That is, there was an isolated incident or two, but this is not happening in any great number. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > one of the reasons why people are out in the streets is to make sure this **stays in the news** and to **stop it from happening again**. Did it happen a couple of times and people hit the streets to protest to ensure it didn’t happen again? Looks like the people did their jobs. I suppose you could look at it that way. Or, as I tend to do, there was that incident I mentioned, but there was no need to make sure multiple “black-baggings” were stopped, because they were never happening in the first place. Again, something happened once, but this is not evidence that America has become a police state, not by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/891 "2020-07-26T14:35:21Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I suppose you could look at it that way. …I would suggest that you **should** look at it this way. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Or, as I tend to do, there was that incident I mentioned, but there was no need to make sure multiple “black-baggings” were stopped, because they were never happening in the first place. You do realise that the Customs and Border Patrol have been conducting [secret, violent arrests of immigrants for years?](https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/border-patrol-violently-assaults-civil-rights-and-liberties/) Did you think it started in Portland? This was standard operating procedure for the CBP. They just didn’t expect to get called out for it. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Again, something happened once, but this is not evidence that America has become a police state, not by a long shot. Strawman. America is indeed on the road to authoritarianism, but it isn’t there yet and I never claimed that they were a “police state.” Its like all the people who say we “overreacted” to Covid-19 with Lockdowns because when we did Lockdown the case numbers went down, so why did we have to Lockdown again? The protests did their job. ---
**Author:** ![bobsmom101](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobsmom101/32/2867_2.png) [@bobsmom101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobsmom101)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/892 "2020-07-26T14:50:03Z")
Making the rounds on Facebook. In summary, Mr. Nystrom is a POC who translates for the court system. He was confronted by a bunch of camo-dressed thugs (ICE?) outside the courthouse and only the fortunate arrival of a DA prevented a very bad outcome. > **[richardhughes.ca](https://richardhughes.ca/trumps-thugs-are-on-a-rampage-canadas-police-actions-also-demand-action/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=trumps-thugs-are-on-a-rampage-canadas-police-actions-also-demand-action&fbclid=IwAR3QdWNCvXcJWZ45SW1IVBx0NGLKZz2n9LHiy-dki58QP31K8Ac9qz3pH3w)** > > This domain may be for sale! ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/893 "2020-07-26T14:59:07Z")
I think the principle of never assuming there are incidents beyond what can be reported and verified is good for most things. However when the federal government has spend decades making accountability and oversight through proper channels impossible it starts to make sense to assume the worst. The only way for info of random people being abducted by the feds for no reason to even be reported is for someone around to have a camera and not themselves be intimidated into stopping or abducted. Of course we never see the entire picture. Of course we have no idea if these are isolated incidents or widespread. The way federal law enforcement is designed we are supposed to never know what they are doing. There’s a reason government agencies need oversight. This is what happens when you don’t have that. Civilians will always assume the worst from unaccountable overlords and unless there is an actual effort on the part of the feds to allow for real oversight, they should. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/894 "2020-07-26T15:00:56Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > If my suspicions are correct, no one is keeping a tally, because there is nothing to tally up. That is, there was an isolated incident or two, but this is not happening in any great number. Ah, so it’s okay if you don’t commit a crime too many times. Interesting defense. “Your honor, yes, my client did point a gun at a passerby and relieve him of his wallet, but it was only the one time. He promises not to do it again.” We could call it the Calvera defense. > Once I rob a bank in Texas; your government get after me with a whole army… _whole army!_ One little bank. Is clear the meaning: in Texas, only Texans can rob banks. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/895 "2020-07-26T15:16:25Z")
This is far from a strawman. Now, I should have said “becoming” or “moving towards” a police state, but this belief is real, as you yourself exemplify. I don’t believe we are moving in that direction. Buy maybe you have evidence that this is the case, such as stats showing an increase in whatever type of activity would show that. You decide what that actvity is, and present the evidence. I read your link about the CPB, and of course these actions are atrocious. But America has done this kind of thing before, and I have no doubt we will do it again in the future. But I want to see a trend showing that it is continually getting worse. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/896 "2020-07-26T15:19:09Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > @k9bfriender, what if the large group of people were targeting businesses that DID have BLM signs in the window? (And one of their people went on the news stating exactly that, so it was clear, not just speculation). Then they are a bunch of assholes too. I am not defending the vandals breaking windows. I am just saying that it is not appropriate to blame or punish the peaceful protesters for their actions. It seems as though you are trying to build a narrative that there is some sort of organized effort to commit vandalism and violence against “wrong think”, and I am saying that you are going to have to bring better evidence than a third hand report by someone who apparently does not even have the name that you originally reported. If you happen to be in a vandalist mood, and you start walking down the street busting out people’s side view mirrors, when you get to your buddy’s car and skip him, it would be wrong to say that you were vandalizing cars because they did not belong to your friend. But, that is exactly the assertion you are trying to make by relaying what you remember of what some random guy on the news said. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/897 "2020-07-26T15:19:25Z")
Oh, please. I never said it was okay. You cannot seriously believe I implied that in any shape or form, can you? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/898 "2020-07-26T15:26:35Z")
I do wonder how they would react if you started playing the “Star Spangled Banner.” Would LEO have to put down their blackjacks and stand at attention? ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/899 "2020-07-26T15:30:52Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Ah, so it’s okay if you don’t commit a crime too many times. Interesting defense. “Vanishingly small” is used all the time around here to excuse misdeeds by one’s own allies. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/900 "2020-07-26T15:32:38Z")
Just as with the “kids in cages” thing where the cruelty was the point. Here the randomness is the point. They don’t want people thinking: “If I go and peacefully protest and don’t commit vandalism or any other crime, I won’t be arrested so I’ll go protest.”. They want people thinking: “They’re just grabbing folks at random even if they’re not breaking the law so I won’t go.” They know these arrests are bullshit. That’s why they’re releasing everybody, but the deterrent against protesting still works because you never know that they might not shift to not letting folks go. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/901 "2020-07-26T15:44:46Z")
I am not sure your reason to choose hostility. My very first line of the post that you objected to was that lasers can cause severe eye injury. That has never been in contention. To accuse me of ignoring a line in my citation that 100% agrees with what I have said is more than a bit odd on your part. It suggests that either you didn’t comprehend what I said, or that you are not understanding what it is that you said. I cited academic articles, you held onto your uncommon interpretation of a common turn of phrase in a news report. What has been in contention is whether lasers are a significantly greater danger than thrown rocks, which you were advocating that they continue to do. And no, I do not believe that lasers pose a greater threat to LEO than rocks, and I have not seen you make the case that they do. But, if your desire is to ignore evidence in favor of your predisposed beliefs, if you can’t even read the words that I wrote and see that you are arguing against a position that I never held, then I do not have anything further to offer you. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/902 "2020-07-26T15:51:35Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > This is far from a strawman. Now, I should have said “becoming” or “moving towards” a police state, but this belief is real, as you yourself exemplify. …“shoulda, coulda”, yet you didn’t. I never said the US was a police state. You put those words into my mouth. A strawman. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I don’t believe we are moving in that direction. I’ll trust the [experts](https://www.businessinsider.com.au/authoritarianism-experts-say-time-running-out-americans-to-stop-trump-2020-2?r=US&IR=T) over the opinions of a random internet poster. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Buy maybe you have evidence that this is the case, such as stats showing an increase in whatever type of activity would show that. You decide what that actvity is, and present the evidence. Already done. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I read your link about the CPB, and of course these actions are atrocious. But America has done this kind of thing before, and I have no doubt we will do it again in the future. But I want to see a trend showing that it is continually getting worse. My cite wasn’t intended to “show a trend that it will continually get worse.” My cite was to show that “America has done this kind of thing before”, it appears you agree with me that America has done this kind of thing before, so I’ll take this as a concession that yes, the CPB “black bagging” protestors at the start of latest round of protests was standard procedure for them and that protesting against the tactic stopped it dead in its tracks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=46)